Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Random]

in fact you can barely avoid the little ivy-league Jacobins if you read any political analysis.

Isn't there literally a US webzine called the Jacobin? Not hard to see why the US leftists tend to think that socialism is the left wing of liberalism.

 

[Random]

How far would you extend this prohibition on judgement btw - all the way to Hakim Bey/Lamborn Wilson's pleasure palace?

Like I said, I'd rather see them err on the side of too much rather than too little. But when it comes to pro-kiddy fiddling propaganda there's a fairly easy decision to take. Although I think that Bey's TAZ is worth having available.

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't there literally a US webzine called the Jacobin? Not hard to see why the US leftists tend to think that socialism is the left wing of liberalism.

Yes, it's not just a webzine anymore it's a rather influential hard copy mag/journal - and guess who writes for them?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Isn't there literally a US webzine called the Jacobin?

The Harris article on Enrager was originally posted to it.

 

[butchersapron]

Like I said, I'd rather see them err on the side of too much rather than too little. But when it comes to pro-kiddy fiddling propaganda there's a fairly easy decision to take. Although I think that Bey's TAZ is worth having available.

Let's lobby them to get a Laura archive up and running then.

 

[Random]

Let's lobby them to get a Laura archive up and running then.

Yes let's

 

[love detective]

Like I said, I'd rather see them err on the side of too much rather than too little. But when it comes to pro-kiddy fiddling propaganda there's a fairly easy decision to take. Although I think that Bey's TAZ is worth having available.

How about all the Giles Dauve stuff that libcom admins were indulging in huge amounts of verbal, political and moral gymnastics to defend?

"For a World Without Moral Order" was written in 1983, during the backwash of the subversive wave of the sixties and seventies. Since then, things have only gotten worse. "Just try being openly pedophile," we wrote. Sadly prophetic. Any form of child-adult love is instantaneously identified as child abuse, whether in its least "offensive" forms or its most atrocious - rape and murder. Parental love would be the only exception to this rule

A man like Dutroux inBelgium was raping and killing teenage girls and women. A man like Andre Gide would make love to young boys. Why amalgamate two utterly different types of behaviour in the same notion of "paedophilia" ?

Nobody denies the existence of child sexuality any more: Freud can't be as easily suppressed as Reich. But this sexuality is turned into a fortress noone has access to

Let's see for a moment adult sex as child-adult sex is usually perceived, i.e. only in its villainous and bloody aspects. Then any male should regard himself as a potential Jack The Ripper, and any wife should fear to be penetrated against her will by her husband every night.

There was also another quote I remember from the time but can't find now which went something along the lines of 'the misery of pedophilia arises from the result of its repression'

As oddpant once commented 'Dauve is a paedo apologist, Hakim Bey without the pervy poems or shit politics' - so Hakim goes and Dauve stays because he's trendy

 

[Random]

How about all the Giles Dauve stuff that libcom admins were indulging in huge amounts of verbal, political and moral gymnastics to defend?

Like I said before, i think that opposing kiddy fiddlers is a fairly easy judgment call. Anyone who has sex with children is committing rape, since they cannot really give consent. Whether it's Andre Gide or not makes no difference.

Just leave the fecking greeks out of it.

 

[love detective]

Indeed, it's just a pity that the libcom admins couldn't make the same easy judgement call when it came to one of their heroes coming out with a dose of the hakims

 

[butchersapron]

How about all the Giles Dauve stuff that libcom admins were indulging in huge amounts of verbal, political and moral gymnastics to defend?


There was also another quote I remember from the time but can't find now which went something along the lines of 'the misery of pedophilia arises from the result of its repression'

As oddpant once commented 'Dauve is a paedo apologist, Hakim Bey without the pervy poems or shit politics' - so Hakim goes and Dauve stays because he's trendy

I missed all that. I think there's a fascination/addiction with these sort of communists for this sort of thing that comes from the insight that all things are historical - without having the real-life social grounding to see that this doesn't mean therefore that all things that have developed historically must be overcome. And without any sort of social-grounding they fly off into this world without moral order crap.

 

[love detective]

all of the threads with the discussion about it have been airbrushed out of history - all the squirming & gymnastics that went on to draw a clear distinction between Hakim's stuff (unacceptable) and Dauve's/Barrots' (acceptable, or just 'misunderstood' or 'poorly translated' ) stuff have all been purged

 

[butchersapron]

Pretty shoddy that then. This has long been a theme in a lot of this communist writing since the late 60s.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I didn't know that about Dauve, nor about the libcom lots attitude. In the words of Summer Roberts, eeeww.

 

[butchersapron]

Pretty shoddy that then. This has long been a theme in a lot of this communist writing since the late 60s.

Bad form to reply to myself i know, but at the same time as this sort of world without moral order stuff appeared so negationism also appeared amongst the same milieu.

 

[frogwoman]

Really?

Can you recommend any books/articles critiquing this?

 

[butchersapron]

Really?

Can you recommend any books/articles critiquing this?

Well, the whole negationsim thing was mostlt carried out in french )one of the leading negationists was gabriel Cohn-bendit, brother of danny the red and the real author of the book Obsolete Communism). Best you'll find now is probably stuff like Assassins of Memory (chapter on The Sect) and follow the stuff through here.

 

[frogwoman]

left wing holocaust deniers. Was this part of some "anti-zionist"/anti-imperialism bullshit or part of the whole idea that morality etc is a bourgeois concept?

 

[butchersapron]

left wing holocaust deniers. Was this part of some "anti-zionist"/anti-imperialism bullshit or part of the whole idea that morality etc is a bourgeois concept?

God no, they totally rejected bullshit like anti-imperialism, in fact this stuff grew partially out of that rejection - everything is just the working of capital. It largely came from a non-negationist text by Bordiga from the late 50s/early 60s called Auschwitz - the great alibi that they took and ran with developed it further and came up with this madness.

 

[frogwoman]

ah yeah, i've read some stuff by bordiga before on the pointlessness of anti-fascism etc but i didn't know he went as far as this.

for fuck's sake.

God no, they totally rejected bullshit like anti-imperialism, in fact this stuff grew partially out of that rejection - everything is just the working of capital. It largely came from a non-negationist text by Bordiga from the late 50s/early 60s called Auschwitz - the great alibi that they took and ran with developed it further and came up with this madness.

 

[butchersapron]

Bordiga wasn't a negationist though, what he wrote doesn't even come close. He was simply outlining anti-anti-fascist case as it applied to something it cannot go around, and he tried to do it on strict marxist grounds. I can't see any blame should attach itself to him The translators note on that article is more of a disgrace than the article itself.

 

[frogwoman]

Bordiga wasn't a negationist though, what he wrote doesn't even come close. He was simply outlining anti-anti-fascist case as it applied to something it cannot go around, and he tried to do it on strict marxist grounds. I can't see any blame should attach itself to him The translators note on that article i more of a disgrace then the article itself.

yes, I'm reading it now. I agree with a lot of it but not all (I think that the whole idea that the jews were largely m/c, while true in germany, wasn't true in the vast majority of the countries where the killing was carried out and the victims of the holocaust were overwhelmingly poor and largely unable to leave) but he makes a lot of good points tbh.

 

[frogwoman]

I quite like some of what Bordiga said (from my limited reading) although the ICC etc are raving mentalists

 

[butchersapron]

I linked to the wrong Pierre Vidal-Naquet thing above btw - i meant this one.

 

[butchersapron]

I quite like some of what Bordiga said (from my limited reading) although the ICC etc are raving mentalists

They not bordiguists though.

 

[frogwoman]

They not bordiguists though.

Oh OK - I thought they claimed to be?

Apart from the thing about the jews mostly being p/b (which was probably true in germany) that's quite a good article.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh OK - I thought they claimed to be?

Apart from the thing about the jews mostly being p/b (which was probably true in germany) that's quite a good article.

Nah, they obv are influenced by Bordiga but aren't Bordiguists, which means something specific that they're not which it's a waste of time talking about

 

[frogwoman]

That

I linked to the wrong Pierre Vidal-Naquet thing above btw - i meant this one.

That article is really interesting. So did holocaust denial as a large scale thing originate in France then?

 

[butchersapron]

That


That article is really interesting. So did holocaust denial as a large scale thing originate in France then?

Yes, Paul Rassinier, ex Communist and camp inmate basically got the ball rolling i think.

 

[frogwoman]

Yes, Paul Rassinier, ex Communist and camp inmate basically got the ball rolling i think.

Bloody hell!

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, a Commie who was actually in Buchenwald...