At the time or in the long term? The problem with Parliamentary democracy is that any good that happens for the working class can quickly be undone again when people representing other interests get in. So something happening once that was perhaps favourable means nothing in the larger scheme of things.
Your vote for the 2015 General Election
- Thread starter gareth taylor
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At the time or in the long term? The problem with Parliamentary democracy is that any good that happens for the working class can quickly be undone again when people representing other interests get in. So something happening once that was perhaps favourable means nothing in the larger scheme of things.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
when that bloke jostled cameron it was a bit like the reichstag fire
Full democracy.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
In periods of increased turbulence, instability and class struggle shall we say?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and after six years of total warIn periods of increased turbulence, instability and class struggle shall we say?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh the lesson here is people can't rest on their laurels. and equally the other lot always have to be on their guard, lest things go bad for them.
newbie
undisambiguated
oh dear. what pointless linguistic trap are you carefully preparing? Seems pretty simple to me, millions of people spending ten minutes every few years affect who will form the next government. That's it. And then we're all stuck with it, whether we voted or not, care or not, hate them or not, until the next election. Between elections there is no distinction based on what was done during that 10 minutes, it's an entirely private matter for the individual concerned.
Andrew Hertford
Chocolate Jesus
Claim racism and homophobia aren't right wing if you like, but my point is that unfortunately the left will never enjoy popular support of up to five million even if they did unite behind one banner. Do you want to debate that or not?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
And if we let ourselves believe that the above is all we've got, we're well and truly subordinated to capitalism, and deserve to be.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so your claim that the millions of votes had some effect was in fact cobblers in that you feel it was solely limited to the moment of voting and not to any subsequent events between, in the first instance, may 1979 and june 1983, june 1983 and june 1987, and june 1987 and april 1992. so, for example, not only was the assault on the miners, steel workers, british leyland workers etc etc etc not affected one whit by the millions of labour votes, nor was the unravelling of the post-1945 settlement. you're not presenting a very persuasive case for bothering to vote.
newbie
undisambiguated
Have you got someone to vote for, someone you'd actually want to win? I haven't, but I know who I vote against.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
a paltry demand, doesn't go far enough.full communism!
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
When Atlee's government were elected, the electorate were well aware of the substantial differences between what the parties were offering - differences that were palpable to the electorate. It wasn't pointless then.
But now, when the difference between what's being offered is fag paper-thin? It's pretty much pointless unless you're one of the minority that stands to actually benefit, or you're so politically-tribal that you can't bring yourself not to vote.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He means that a vote in the present system is meaningless, and he's right. All the current system gets us is one of two parties in power (forget the Lib-Dems, they've shown that in coalition they'll take on the major party's colouring). One of two parties whose policies are as similar as their founding ideologies are different.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TBF, some of those who bang on about exercising your vote, are in favour of people doing so because it's a relatively-simple social obligation that costs them a minimum of effort. They'd run a mile from the idea or the reality of full democracy, and the requirement for participation that it entails.
newbie
undisambiguated
when the votes were counted the tories won. Please don't preach at me about Thatcher, she won those elections because people voted tory in their millions. Insufficient people voted to keep them out. You're presenting no case at all for not voting.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Racism and homophobia are inherent to social living, they're "facts of life" exacerbated by our economic system, not an attribute of any particular political direction. In fact "the left" have historically been as loaded with such "-isms" as the right.
Your point about "the left" is meaningless, unless you quantify what you mean by "the left", and by "popular support". I'm presuming you mean for a single putatively "left-representing" party, in which case more than 5 million people already do so. I suspect that what you mean is the "hard left", and of course they won't get 5 million behind them, even those who go in for participatory democracy. All they've ever been good for is as a source of ideas that can be appropriated and re-worked by the more centrist left, just as the same thing happens, in mirror image, on the right.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Which came after the total breakdown of the global economic system and the rise of Fascism.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're showing you don't undersyand the electoral system of this country
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
newbie
undisambiguated
sorry, I missed this post.
So what. Only you care. Nobody else knows or cares how you vote. Because only you care about how you vote, only you can think it through, taking into consideration whatever arguments you please. It's your decision and yours alone. So I can't characterise your personal decision.
But for myself, when I think about it, prioritising some consistent position does nothing for my self respect, millions of others are voting to keep the tories out and to me that matters much, much more. As it doesn't matter in slightest to anyone but me, I know that if I choose to care about "If you're anti-capitalist you're voting for capitalism, end of." I'm doing so for self indulgent reasons. But that matters only to me (for all the fact I'm trying to write it out), in my head I can use whatever self-righteous arguments I please, just as you can in yours.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
20+ years after the rise of fascism
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I didn't say voting mattered very often!
It mattered that people voted Syriza this year - regardless of whether Syriza betray people. It was an important development.
newbie
undisambiguated
did I? seems unlikely, why would I care whether or how you vote. I care about the outcome of the election, millions of votes, but only you care about your own vote.
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