World Athletics Championships 2017
- Thread starter QueenOfGoths
- Start date
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
What precisely do you want to see happen?
QueenOfGoths
Fuck you Dave!
Really disappointed for Laura Muir 
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
I want to see a policy based on sport fairness rather than identity politics.
I know people say it's not Semenya's fault: that it would be unfair to exclude her. But being fair to her is being unfair to all the other runners.
Perhaps the rule is XX chromosome/normal androgen levels only in the women's events. And if that excludes a small number of people, then that's sad but it's fair.
Casual Observer
enough
I thought they were hyping the 1500m up too much during the evening but it was a very exciting race, the best of the evening. A shame Laura Muir finished fourth after a gutsy but ultimately medal-free last lap.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Brave run but I was screaming at her to not give everything too soon
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Flutteryest eyelids ever
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Why would that be fair?
Athletes have all kinds of physical advantages, in large part that's why they're athletes and most of us aren't (not ignoring the immense amount of effort that goes into it as well, of course).
They didn't tell Bolt "sorry mate, your long limbs give you too much of an advantage; there's a height restriction on the 100m now.".
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
It was. It was a race with many dynamics and great committment and it was, ulltimately, super-exciting....
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
It's not really a relevant comparison because size (height/body) differences occur across all disciplines and the differences in height (say) are usually compensated by leg speed. Bolt is a bit naturally unique that's all.
With Semenya, we have someone who is most probably intersex and, crucially, her body levels of testosterone are super high (as is probably the case with both Niyonsaba and Wambui too). Athletes take testosterone to improve their performance and, quite rightly, that's banned.
I know it's not 'fair' to exclude anomalous athletes but if your anomaly is the over-production of a substance that's banned (testosterone is a natural substance) then you either have to exclude the anomalous athletes or allow all athletes to have access to the artificial introduction of the same natural substance.
felixthecat
are we there yet?
Exactly. I look at the triple jumpers - they're good because they are tall with long, long legs. Yes, as you said they work hard too but youve got to start with the right anatomical and physiological properties to allow you to excel. Caster Semenya has those characteristics that make her excel at middle distance running.
All exceptional.athletes are in some ways freaks of nature - paula radcliffe for example has an extraordinary VO2 max which makes her uber efficient at using energy because she has a huge oxygen carrying ability. Is that an unfair advantage?
I see it as a whole.lot of sour grapes
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
The idea that she has benefited from identity politics is shite. She's had a dogs abuse and reportedly ended up taking medication to suppress testosterone just to avoid the shitstorm. She probably does have some genetic advantages when it comes ot running, though I believe the link between testosterone and actual performance is disputed. But if you split competition into separate men's and women's races, then is seems fair, to use your word, that a woman be allowed to compete in the women's race. Yes, if I was a competitor in the 800m, I'd feel hard done to - but that itself isn't a reason to ban her.
Casual Observer
enough
You're a bloke, Wilf. You definitely shouldn't be in the womens' 1500m.
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Athletes are banned from taking testosterone, additional testosterone. I honestly don't know the stats, but I'd be not at all surprised if most female athletes having higher testosterone than average, and that'll be a cyclical thing of both because of and the reason for their success in sports.
Semenya's testosterone is as natural as Bolt's height.
What I do think about this whole debate is it possibly brings into question the binary of men and women's sports, and whether moving forward that's a useful distinction to make. But I feel we're pretty far from that being resolved society-wide, never mind sports, and it's also an issue I am waaaaay too ill-read to properly contribute to.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I know, I know. I put the hours in but didn't get anywhere near the qualifying time.
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
I just think the whole culture of identity politics has muddied the water and wrong decisions have been made.
I think the whole thing should be simplified and women's athletics should only be open to XX chromosome women with androgen levels within a normal range. Anyone else would then be totally free to compete in the men's events.
I think the whole thing should be simplified and women's athletics should only be open to XX chromosome women with androgen levels within a normal range. Anyone else would then be totally free to compete in the men's events.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
That implies that women's events have a specified genetic make up - but men's don't. Women are 'this' - and men are everything else.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
... oh and it's also fucking rude for women excluded from 'women's' events.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Kind of, yeah. Men's events don't have gender-testing.
Smangus
comatose at a desk
Well she didn't win and only just came 3rd so from where I'm sitting it doesn't look like a huge advantage. Horrible to hear Paula Radcliff extolling the virtues of "reverse doping" for women that have abnormal levels of testosterone. Whatqa fucking hypocrite. What next athletic eugenics?
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
When you segregate athletes into men and women, then by definition you're going to get involved in "identity politics" because you're literally trying to define what a man or a woman is, or put another way, what their identity is.
Yeah, that was seriously fucking concerning. It was at that point I started shouting at the TV againHorrible to hear Paula Radcliff extolling the virtues of "reverse doping" for women that have abnormal levels of testosterone. Whatqa fucking hypocrite. What next athletic eugenics?
There wasn't even any sports on 
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's more than identity, though. The reason you segregate athletes is because if you didn't, you would not see a single female athlete at the top level in any event. That's not due to identity, but due to physical differences.
So you have different levels of meanings of sex and gender overlapping each other very uneasily.
I think this is one of those horrible questions that simply doesn't have a good answer. We split sports up into two camps, and not everyone fits neatly into that system.
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
When you segregate athletes into men and women, then by definition you're going to get involved in "identity politics" because you're literally trying to define what a man or a woman is, or put another way, what their identity is.
Yeah, that was seriously fucking concerning. It was at that point I started shouting at the TV again
But it's reverse doping that is the fumbling 'deal' that has had to be done with Semenya. She has had to take blockers to bring her male-level testosterone down to acceptable levels.
No-one knows what her sexual situation is but it is obvious to anyone that looks at her that she is not a normal woman. And, throughout her career, she has been dogged with complaints from fellow athletes. I'm just on the side of the many (fellow athletes).
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
There has never been a 'level playing field'. For decades it was 'which country/individual can invest a vast amount into creating athletes'. It was about who was allowed to compete. And it was overwhelmingly about men.
And do you actually think there were no 'hyperandrogenists' before there was sufficient testing to determine if someone was hyperandrogenous?
(And the stuff others have mentioned about different genetic traits affecting performances)
Casual Observer
enough
Odd that Semenya's unnaturally high testosterone levels, which supposedly give her an unfair advantage, haven't propelled her in the all-time top 10 fastest times list for the womens' 800m - her favoured event. Her best 800m time puts her 20th on the list.
It could be said that some or all of the athletes above her on the womens' 800m list are unconvicted drug cheats, but if Semenya's condition gives her such an unfair advantage (similar to that of a drug cheat), then you'd expect her to be comfortably inside the top 10 if not at the top.
She's 829th on the womens' 1500m list with a best time of 4:01.99 (just ahead of Wilf). This comparison is less meaningful as she's only just started doing the event. Her time tonight (4:02.90) was slower than her PB by the way.
In short, leave her alone.
It could be said that some or all of the athletes above her on the womens' 800m list are unconvicted drug cheats, but if Semenya's condition gives her such an unfair advantage (similar to that of a drug cheat), then you'd expect her to be comfortably inside the top 10 if not at the top.
She's 829th on the womens' 1500m list with a best time of 4:01.99 (just ahead of Wilf). This comparison is less meaningful as she's only just started doing the event. Her time tonight (4:02.90) was slower than her PB by the way.
In short, leave her alone.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
wtf is a 'normal' woman? i suspect any individual in the top 1% of performers in their field are somewhat 'abnormal'
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's flawed logic. I've got male levels of testosterone sloshing about in me, but that doesn't mean that at any point in my life I'd have been able to train up to get as good as an elite female athlete.
