Why do the left believe the govt on immigration but nothing else?

[durruti02]

I agree- it is a tautology that misses the point that any of those groups advocating w/c demands on immigration (and concommitant rises in social housing etc for communities experiencing immigration) require a militant and organised w/c to implement them or even force the state to implement them. Any time that level of militancy is achieved- as revol says- the demans would be much more grandiose. As it is you seem to have demands that are
a/ 'transitional' if they understand the above fact, and so dishonest, and
b/ possibly pandering to reactionary ideas that aren't internationalist and see immigrants as immigrants, not other working class people.

typical academic response .. you have it totally upside down .. you can ONLY get progressive politics from an empowered people .. you start from basics and build up ..

tbh you can do fuck all to defend immigrnats as it is and thats what makes me laugh .. you all are demanding NO Borders!! and all i am talking about is creating ppwer at the base! LOL

 

[belboid]

and its in with the smilies and shouty LOLS that show durutti cant make an argument - again!

Your not talking about 'creating power at the base' - your fantasising about it.

You certainly can do fuck all to defend imimgrants if you dont even try - and you seem to have no interest in trying.

 

[revol68]

wildcat strikes? again, workplace struggle were permantly derailed after the miners' strike. The shock effects of this are still reverberating today.

And don't feign obtuseness about the definition of economic struggle - I, and you, know full well that you are talking about workplace stuggle. The definition of economic struggle above covers everything - community or workplace.

Capitalism is constantly changing - we have had 200 years of continuous change: social, economic, political and cultural. All that is solid melts into air - if something isn't growing, it's dying. Nothing stays still. Theory and action has to match this - it has to be cutting edge.

I don't say that workplace stuggles are irrelevant - just it's far, far less important than it was.

This is basic Marxism - that the the factories of thousands did breed a certain consciousness. But when the the factories go, as they have done - where does the most hopeful point of people's concerns lie then?

well no, when i talk about economic struggle i'm not talking about the workplace exclusively, that would be absurd, afterall the example you give of the last great "economic struggle", the miners, was extremely dependent of organising and co ordination way beyond the "workplace".

As for the idea that workplace organising is ead in the water, well aren't we the silly like Fukuyama. What an ahistorical exclamation, and from someone spouting out Marx quotes. There is no doubt that the working class has taken a kicking, that it's old forms of workplace organising have been either totally co opted, or are inadequate for contemporary struggle, but to imagine that people will continue to spend 35 hours plus in a role they mostly resent, under disciplinary regimes they detest and yet there will be no resistance, is the kind of crap I'd expect from an Economist reade, actually the Economist as a mouthpiece for capital isn't so idiotic as to underestimate it's "human resources" in such a manner.

yes, collective class struggle is at a low, but there is still resistance, even if it is in individualised forms, but what is important is the potential for it, and more important the potential that such struggles have. Never before have the circuits of capital been so global and interconnected, never before have we had the telecommunications we have at our disposal, capitalism is global and so are it's grave diggers. The workplace might be "uncool" with you clowns and your "identity" class politic, but it is the very basis of internationalism, we have call centre staff in India and Glasgow sharing the same sould destroying experiance. My work place has Polish, Indian, French and irish people all sharing a common materiallity. This represents a fantastic oppurtunity for the realisation of Internationalism, and of course for ethnic division, but in my experiance it is a place where such divisions are overcome far more than in the community.

 

[kropotkin]

revol, you are making good arguments- drop the uncomradely tone.
from a mate, not an adversary

 

[durruti02]

and its in with the smilies and shouty LOLS that show durutti cant make an argument - again!

Your not talking about 'creating power at the base' - your fantasising about it.

You certainly can do fuck all to defend imimgrants if you dont even try - and you seem to have no interest in trying.

belboid unlike you i AM doing it

yu can only defend immigrants IF yu have a strong w/c .. how else do yu plan to do it??

 

[durruti02]

revol q to you that i have given to others

if your bosses decided to cut staff and recruit cheap labour abroad what would you do?

 

[revol68]

belboid unlike you i AM doing it

yu can only defend immigrants IF yu have a strong w/c .. how else do yu plan to do it??

aren't immigrants part of the working class?

surely you can defend them by arguing for there rights, in fightig against draconian immigration laws and offering them solidarity?

Oh wait, when you talk about the working class you mean "your" working class.

muppet.

 

[revol68]

revol q to you that i have given to others

if your bosses decided to cut staff and recruit cheap labour abroad what would you do?

hmmm let me think....

I'd send off to the SWP for some nice "Refugee's are welcome here" stickers and offer myself up as a hospitality officer for them.

oh wait, I'd struggle against the lay off's as much as I would if they were bringing in cheap scab labour from somewhere local. You know like they did in the Irish ferries dispute, where they fought not only for themselves but also so that the immigrant workers could not be paid under a certain level.

I treat this issue in the same way i treat the issue of casualisation, i make no special difference cos they are from a different country.

I'd also like to see the development of solidarity with workers organisations on the ground of the native countries.

And anyway your poitn is mute, cos without immigration, 100 odd jobs in my place have been moved to India, to be done at a lower cost.

 

[durruti02]

A .. aren't immigrants part of the working class?

B .. surely you can defend them by arguing for there rights, in fightig against draconian immigration laws and offering them solidarity?

Oh wait, when you talk about the working class you mean "your" working class.

muppet.

A .. yes of course they are!! what an odd question ? but are you telling me you would support your boss sacking long term union members and then importing cheap labour from abroad??

B .. so we all of a sudden have a strong w/c class capable of changing govt policy!! when did that happen!! what solidarity can we offer??

cart .. before .. horse..

 

[revol68]

that's nice making a direct corelation between immigrants and scabs.

dickhead.

If immigrants were being used as scabs I would stand against them, not as immigrants but as scabs.

the scab is someone who crosses a picket line, not someone who just takes a fucking job at a low wage.

Are you going to label all temp workers scabs too?

 

[durruti02]

hmmm let me think....

I'd send off to the SWP for some nice "Refugee's are welcome here" stickers and offer myself up as a hospitality officer for them.

A .. oh wait, I'd struggle against the lay off's as much as I would if they were bringing in cheap scab labour from somewhere local. You know like they did in the Irish ferries dispute, where they fought not only for themselves but also so that the immigrant workers could not be paid under a certain level.

I treat this issue in the same way i treat the issue of casualisation, i make no special difference cos they are from a different country.

I'd also like to see the development of solidarity with workers organisations on the ground of the native countries.

B .. And anyway your poitn is mute, cos without immigration, 100 odd jobs in my place have been moved to India, to be done at a lower cost.

A .. exactly .. you would stop your bosses USING immigrants to take your job .. or anyone else p.s. did you look at my post 148??????

the problem is that in 2006 immigrants rather than the unemployed( who refuse these low paid jobs ), have become the reserve army of labour ..

b .. same deal .. but do you not see how the left are happy to complain about jobs being exported but about NOT labour being imported??

 

[durruti02]

that's nice making a direct corelation between immigrants and scabs.

dickhead.

If immigrants were being used as scabs I would stand against them, not as immigrants but as scabs.

the scab is someone who crosses a picket line, not someone who just takes a fucking job at a low wage.

Are you going to label all temp workers scabs too?

???

first off you do not have to cross a picket line to scab ..

second i am not stating at all that immigrants are scabs .. THAT though is how many people see them ... as people who have taken jobs that they previously did , prior to privatisation/restructuring

actually the gate gourmet and Irish ferries workers were i think technically scabs ..

theh deal is though that the effest of immigration is to create division .. those who are here we must recruit unite with .. but equally we must resist bosses attempts to use /abuse more immigrants ..

 

[revol68]

and what id any self respecting socialist do in times of unemployment? Did they call for closed shops?

or did they fight for unemployment rights.

Also considering you seem to imagine the working class to be base little greedy cunts who can't see past their own pay packets, you might wish to reflect on the workers refusing overtime during times of unemployment, calling for fewer hours and for more workers to be taken on.

Not only this but you have managed to dominate the discussion on urban with the bogeyman of immigration in a way that Murdoch never could have.

Most workng class people i know, are more concerned about the state of the health servie, schools and other public services than they are about "immigrants taking their jobs".

 

[revol68]

also the simple fact that without immigration the economy would collapse, and since your the one arguing from within a bourgeois frame work, you might want to consider what economic collapse would offer the working class.

And most working class people do not see immigrants as scabs, rather they see them as people forced into taking the shittest jobs we have.

I've never known anyone to look into burger king and bitch about those "bastards taking our jobs".

 

[tbaldwin]

also the simple fact that without immigration the economy would collapse, .

What economy are you talking about? Nationally or Internationally?

Whats better to fight for International Labour rules or just to fight for union rights in the UK?

 

[durruti02]

A .. and what didany self respecting socialist do in times of unemployment? Did they call for closed shops? or did they fight for unemployment rights.

B .. Also considering you seem to imagine the working class to be base little greedy cunts who can't see past their own pay packets, you might wish to reflect on the workers refusing overtime during times of unemployment, calling for fewer hours and for more workers to be taken on.

C .. Not only this but you have managed to dominate the discussion on urban with the bogeyman of immigration in a way that Murdoch never could have.

Most workng class people i know, are more concerned about the state of the health servie, schools and other public services than they are about "immigrants taking their jobs".

trouble is you have missed much of the debate on here

.. immigration is as you rightly say NOT the major issue at all ..

A.. you misunderstand closed shop .. it is a from of workers power

what it is is the issue the left/@ pretend does not exist/have an influence on anything and the issue that the w/c wonders why the left refuses to comment on and shrugs its shoulders and thinks well i might as well vote bnp then ..

it shows their general seperation from people ..

B .. please don't lecture me on the unselfishness or not of people .. i'm 45 and been in work at the same place for 20 years and a finer and more unselfish bunch i could not choose , who do everything you say ..and yet still HATE the sight of the bosses using and abusing immigrnats and hate the failure of any leftists/@s


c .. cos it is the talk of the town .. otherwise why would murdoch be using it? why would Reid be ( falsely) claiming to clamp down ? why would the bnp be doing so well? why would toynbee say what she does? and the mp for barking state it as such a serious issue ( see john cruddas thread) .. it is only you on urban and the swp who do not think there is an issue ..

 

[revol68]

What economy are you talking about? Nationally or Internationally?

Whats better to fight for International Labour rules or just to fight for union rights in the UK?

I was talking about the UK economy and if you had any brains or honesty you would have left in the vital part of the quote ie "under a bourgeois framework".

 

[revol68]

No i do understand the concept of a closed shop. it's not some inate form of workers power, you tedious lil prick. Closed shops can be a form of working class power, but they can also be a means of divison and reaction.

If I remember correctly, you are from northern ireland, yes?

Now I'm sure i'm patronising you by pointing out the role of effective "closed shops" in maintaining sectarian workplaces?

or in the US it's role in reinforcing racism?

You are also all over the plce. What is the difference between me and a Nigerian moving to England and getting a job through a recruitment agency?

Are temp agency staff scabs too?

Also is it beyond your intellect that maybe the issue is being used by Murdoch and Reid because it not only provides a scapegoat for the state of the country, but because by amplfiying the calls for more immigration controls it puts them in a an even more precarious and exploitative position, whilst also further dividing the working class? Or maybe cos Reid want's to look tough?

For fucksake 90% of israeli's think that the bombing of lebanon is a necessity, and their newspapers say fuck all else. Can we look forward to you arguing for a working class approach to the bombing of Lebanon?

So there we have it, socialism is now about playing to the populist press. Fan fucking tastic.

 

[tbaldwin]

I was talking about the UK economy and if you had any brains or honesty you would have left in the vital part of the quote ie "under a bourgeois framework".

So you think it would be against the UKs national interest to stop mass migration?
Any idea of how different classes might be effected? by this NATIONAL interest?
And how people internationally might be effected?

 

[durruti02]

No i do understand the concept of a closed shop. it's not some inate form of workers power, you tedious lil prick. Closed shops can be a form of working class power, but they can also be a means of divison and reaction.

If I remember correctly, you are from northern ireland, yes?

Now I'm sure i'm patronising you by pointing out the role of effective "closed shops" in maintaining sectarian workplaces?

or in the US it's role in reinforcing racism?

You are also all over the plce. What is the difference between me and a Nigerian moving to England and getting a job through a recruitment agency?

Are temp agency staff scabs too?

Also is it beyond your intellect that maybe the issue is being used by Murdoch and Reid because it not only provides a scapegoat for the state of the country, but because by amplfiying the calls for more immigration controls it puts them in a an even more precarious and exploitative position, whilst also further dividing the working class? Or maybe cos Reid want's to look tough?

For fucksake 90% of israeli's think that the bombing of lebanon is a necessity, and their newspapers say fuck all else. Can we look forward to you arguing for a working class approach to the bombing of Lebanon?

So there we have it, socialism is now about playing to the populist press. Fan fucking tastic.

??? no not from ni!! i do like derry though ..

i always find it funny how @s and leftists have so much problems with w/c power .. you are fking scared of the w/c thats why .. yu do NOT trust w/c people .. sad .. you are always looking for arguements against workers power .. amazing

you are spot on about what reid is doing ? but he could NOT use it without a real material issue ..

a w/c approach to palestine involves yet again building w/c power here .. we will not change events in any other way ..

 

[revol68]

So you think it would be against the UKs national interest to stop mass migration?
Any idea of how different classes might be effected? by this NATIONAL interest?
And how people internationally might be effected?

Isn't that my fucking point, dipshit!

it's within a bourgeois framework!

You seem to be arguing that immigration has a negative effect on poor countries. I totally agree it does. But does tightening up immigration policy do anything to stop it? or does it just put the people migrating into a more precarious position?

it's very easy to sit here in a relatively "comfortable" country and whinge about people not staying in their own and fighting.

my point is that the only way to deal with immigration is to fight for migrants rights, so they are no longer as exploitable. Offer solidarity to those working class people fighting for their interests in the migrant countries and to fight for better conditions for all.

 

[durruti02]

Isn't that my fucking point, dipshit!

it's within a bourgeois framework!

You seem to be arguing that immigration has a negative effect on poor countries. I totally agree it does. But does tightening up immigration policy do anything to stop it? or does it just put the people migrating into a more precarious position?

it's very easy to sit here in a relatively "comfortable" country and whinge about people not staying in their own and fighting.

my point is that the only way to deal with immigration is to fight for migrants rights, so they are no longer as exploitable. Offer solidarity to those working class people fighting for their interests in the migrant countries and to fight for better conditions for all.

please could you check my post 148 and say what is wrong with that ..

 

[revol68]

??? no not from ni!! i do like derry though ..

i always find it funny how @s and leftists have so much problems with w/c power .. you are fking scared of the w/c thats why .. yu do NOT trust w/c people .. sad ..

youare spot on about what reid is doing ? but he could NOT use it without a real material issue ..

a w/c approach to palestine involves yet again building w/c power here .. we willnot change events in any other way ..

there isn't a single point in that mish mash.

I do not have a problem with w/c power, but i'm not some fucking idiot who imagines that working class power is actually a possibility under capitalism, infact working class power within a bourgeois framework is a means of getting people to self identify with their oppression, like a societal "Toyotism". Working class power without a socialist content or atleast without the potential for a socialist content, is of no interest to me. I've seen working class power in northern ireland, in the ghettoes under the control of paramilitaries, i grew up in a loyalist estate, and my da remembers the Ulster Workers Council. The working class organising it's own division and bigotry is nothing to aim for.

As someone who believes totally in the power of the working class and the potential it holds, I'm also aware of how this potential can be used towards reactionary and dangerous ends.

You seem to be some sort of class fetishist who patronises the working class with ever empty word of praise, the working class is your noble savage.

 

[tbaldwin]

there isn't a single point in that mish mash.

I do not have a problem with w/c power, but i'm not some fucking idiot who imagines that working class power is actually a possibility under capitalism, infact working class power within a bourgeois framework is a means of getting people to self identify with their oppression, like a societal "Toyotism". Working class power without a socialist content or atleast without the potential for a socialist content, is of no interest to me. I've seen working class power in northern ireland, in the ghettoes under the control of paramilitaries, i grew up in a loyalist estate, and my da remembers the Ulster Workers Council. The working class organising it's own division and bigotry is nothing to aim for.

As someone who believes totally in the power of the working class and the potential it holds, I'm also aware of how this potential can be used towards reactionary and dangerous ends.

You seem to be some sort of class fetishist who patronises the working class with ever empty word of praise, the working class is your noble savage.

I think NI is a special case but a very interesting one! Socialists need to argue for countries and a world that is less divided by class religion etc...I think thats what both you and durrutti want....

Mass migartion without integration is a disaster waiting to happen.....Most people realise that....Look at NI.......Look at how much time the UK media now spends fretting about What muslims want??Etc

 

[revol68]

what the fuck are you on about now?

You seem to be arguing that immigration is now the cause of division, well quite, in the same way I suppouse black people are responsible for racism.

Why don't you just admit that you think immigrants are too much bother?

I don't why you even borught up integration. Do you think i'm some sort of multicultural identity politics gobshite?
But intregation is not one way, it's not about immigrants just assimilating.

 

[durruti02]

there isn't a single point in that mish mash.

I do not have a problem with w/c power, but i'm not some fucking idiot who imagines that working class power is actually a possibility under capitalism, infact working class power within a bourgeois framework is a means of getting people to self identify with their oppression, like a societal "Toyotism". Working class power without a socialist content or atleast without the potential for a socialist content, is of no interest to me. I've seen working class power in northern ireland, in the ghettoes under the control of paramilitaries, i grew up in a loyalist estate, and my da remembers the Ulster Workers Council. The working class organising it's own division and bigotry is nothing to aim for.

As someone who believes totally in the power of the working class and the potential it holds, I'm also aware of how this potential can be used towards reactionary and dangerous ends.

You seem to be some sort of class fetishist who patronises the working class with ever empty word of praise, the working class is your noble savage.

this is an illuminating post mate .. yet again in examples of w/c people using their power you concentrate on it being used in reactionary ways .. how else can i think but you are another typical ivory tower bigot regardless of where you are from ..

in fact it is you who are fetishing a form .. the form is just that a form not its content .. but without it we are NOWHERE .. without strggle without closed shop without unions we are nowhere ..

indeed i think the UWC is a VERY important part of w/c history .. ( as is free derryetc etc)

i am guessing you support the ultra leftists against dave douglas?

 

[tbaldwin]

what the fuck are you on about now?

You seem to be arguing that immigration is now the cause of division, well quite, in the same way I suppouse black people are responsible for racism.

Why don't you just admit that you think immigrants are too much bother?

I don't why you even borught up integration. Do you think i'm some sort of multicultural identity politics gobshite?
But intregation is not one way, it's not about immigrants just assimilating.

Immigration without integration is not a good thing....Is my point....

I dont know what point your trying to make re Black people being responsible for racism?

Immigrants too much bother????

I think your making some wildly innacurate assumptions?

 

[durruti02]

what the fuck are you on about now?

You seem to be arguing that immigration is now the cause of division, well quite, in the same way I suppouse black people are responsible for racism. QUOTE]

?? of course immigration is used to cause division !! marx commented on it on many occassions .. ( see the marx and immigration threads) .. how do you get from that to saying i blame black people for casuing racsim ..

 

[revol68]

this is an illuminating post mate .. yet again in examples of w/c people using their power you concentrate on it being used in reactionary ways .. how else can i think but you are another typical ivory tower bigot regardless of where you are from ..

in fact it is you who are fetishing a form .. the form is just that a form not its content .. but without it we are NOWHERE .. without strggle without closed shop without unions we are nowhere ..

indeed i think the UWC is a VERY important part of w/c history .. ( as is free derryetc etc)

i am guessing you support the ultra leftists against dave douglas?

the closed shop and the union?

what the fuck are you on about, the Unions have been one of the biggest betrayers of the working class.

Did i say the closed shop was necessarily a reactionary tool? No i fucking didn't, i'm saying that without a socialist content or with a narrow bigotted content, it will become a tool for division.

You still haven't addressed my points about northern ireland or the US.

Should black and catholic workers support closed shops?

You are the fuckng ivory tower fantasist, an Orwellian tourist, you can see only good in your "noble savage" because he's just a projection of your desires. "Hope lies in the Proles", yes quite, but so does despair.

As for Dave Douglass and the ultra leftists, well i'm actually sympathetic to Dave on that one. But then again the NUM weren't trying to formulate immigration fucking policy. I'm certainly not outside and against, but i'm not blinded and uncritical either.

 

[revol68]

what the fuck are you on about now?

You seem to be arguing that immigration is now the cause of division, well quite, in the same way I suppouse black people are responsible for racism. QUOTE]

?? of course immigration is used to cause division !! marx commented on it on many occassions .. ( see the marx and immigration threads) .. how do you get from that to saying i blame black people for casuing racsim ..

Black people came here as migrants, does that mean that they caused racism?

Migration has also created unity and united disparate peoples from arond the world.

Maybe you should look at the early IWW and the thousands of immigrants to south america who brought working class militancy and new tactics to the labour movement, or even to the US were it is hispanic workers that are leading the way in terms of working class militancy.