Why are more young men than older seeing feminism as a bad thing?

[pogofish]

In terms of the 'Oh, it was all better back then when mum was at home baking cakes and dad came back from work to a dinner made from scratch and children respected their parents', totally sweeping under the rug the shitty deal for woman, the racism, the voicelessness of kids, the ability to wave away domestic violence and sexual assault against women and children etc, it's kind of the flipside that's used to soften the paranoia and persecution side which I totally agree is key.

There is a kind of fetishisation of a "perfect past" - pretty much as you describe, when the man was master and everything went all their way. For the current crop, the image of 1950s America seems to be the touchstone of everything that's good and right. I suppose the way they portray it could be taken as mawkish but yes, it excuses nothing.

 

[planetgeli]

So perhaps the misogyny is less a 'social media' problem because that's not what it is anymore - it's an 'algorithm-led media' problem.

Not being picky, because you are right, it is algorithms - but these were invented for social media, to drive the profits of social media. And to hell with the consequences for society.

If you haven't watched it already, watch The Social Dilemma. Lots of people who invented these algorithms now regretting their work.

"If you aren't paying for the product, you are the product."

 

[Cloo]

Yes, I watched The Social Dilemma a year or two ago - scary stuff.

 

[pbsmooth]

increasing loneliness is surely a big factor in all this. people then look for a tribe, to feel part of something (look at us on here). and these grifters offer that - and are good at playing into that. 'speaking for the silent majority' etc. I guess to the person mentioning women, as if to say what's the equivalent, then the stereotype would be getting sucked into anti-vax wacky conspiracy groups.

 

[Red Cat]

Just on this bit, I think it's worth coming back to what muscovyduck said above:

Which suggests it's not just a question of "doing well" in strictly economic terms, but also about much broader issues, which I don't think women are exempt from. And of course while there's a lot of people on high salaries, there's still a lot more who aren't, of whatever gender, even women who are doctors are still facing below-inflation pay rises and so on.

Well that would be odd wouldn't it? And being a woman of course I am well aware of them.

But I don't think its true that there's a generation who feel let down and disappointed and excluded. I was a teen in Merseyside in the 80s, it was a tough time for a lot of people, totally different to the experience of young people from middle class families in the South East. It's important to note differences as well as wider social contexts.

 

[MickiQ]

My own dating life (age 28) is a complete mess. I've got a stable housing situation renting my own place I refuse to fuck up, and pretty much every relationship I've had since I sorted that out has fallen apart early doors because I'm not remotely interested in irrevocabley changing my long term housing situation a month in to dating someone. Even if the other party has a stable housing situation, they don't know how to cope without housing as a motivator in a relationship. It gets worse when they realise my plan to get a mortgage isn't to find a boyfriend to pair up with. Its exacerbated because I look like someone who should be in an unstable situation but I'm not.

It doesn't look the same every time. One time, it's a man trying to rearrange my furniture in my own home to suit his vision for the place. One time it's a man knowing I'll never get a deal this good again trying to convince me to move to "help my mental health". One time it's a man I've been ON ONE DATE WITH assuming I'll be moving cross country for him. One time it's a married couple trying to set me up with someone assuming I'll move in with him within 6 months so they can take over my tenancy. He breaks up with me because after the couple start squatting in my home, instead of even mentioning it to my boyfriend of 6 weeks, I expertly maneuver them out. One time, it's my neighbours trying to move a single male friend of theirs into my home "as a favour because I can't afford the rent" then repeatedly trying to set me up with him, because he's new to the UK and needs somewhere to live. One time I get ghosted because the man I'm dating has found someone willing to move cross country into the area to be trapped in a very questionable and very rural housing situation with him where she doesn't have a car or a job or friends. He's spent years trying to convince everyone he's a good guy and got unlucky with his exes but he's willing to throw that away to transparently trap a woman he hates.

And a lot of the time I feel sad about it, because a fair amount of the relationships people fall into because they wanted to move out of their parents or their tenancy was up or whatever do actually work out in the long term, and I'm just completely unable to make that sort of thing work for me.

And all of this is before the resentment about careers or having a good social life or being healthy or being confident to speak truth to power, or attitudes to porn.

At 28 you're younger than 3 of my children which I find rather scary tbh. You do raise a very interesting point I think. My two elder daughters moved out at 24 (Eldest) and 22 (Middle) to live with boyfriends who they have both since married and started a family with. Both times Mrs Q and I kept their rooms open for them for a while in case they might return on the grounds they were always welcome to do so if it didn't work out. But for women (and indeed men) who don't have parents to fall back on should things go south then moving in with someone is potentially a huge commitment with possibly no way out of. I can fully understand why someone wouldn't give up a secure tenancy unless they were 110% sure they had found the one.
Even someone who's paying a mortgage and decides to rent out their place could find themselves homeless for months as they evict the tenant (with all the moral quandries that might cause)
Plus let me offer my sympathies, you have clearly been forced to waste your time on some serious arseholes.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Isn't the other side of the incel thing that they have these weird twisted ideas of what constitutes a high status woman, or at least the sort of woman a high status man would be with? So it's not just a case of 'loads of women just want a decent person' because they don't want one of those women.

That’s a long running trope in TV/film isn’t it? Fairly average guy paired with gorgeous woman. As well as average guy bemoaning his lack of partner and then revealing his very high standards. Very few ideas are new.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Just on this bit, I think it's worth coming back to what muscovyduck said above:

Which suggests it's not just a question of "doing well" in strictly economic terms, but also about much broader issues, which I don't think women are exempt from. And of course while there's a lot of people on high salaries, there's still a lot more who aren't, of whatever gender, even women who are doctors are still facing below-inflation pay rises and so on.

There's a really weird conflicting duality out there as well.

On the one hand: be an alpha male, make big bucks, flash the cash, attract a woman with your ability to be a provider.

On the other hand: Fuck that bitch, she's a gold-digger, just interested in you for your money.

So men are simultaneously receiving messages that they're supposed to wine and dine a woman and pick up the tab, while also being resentful about paying for dinner and thinking that maybe buys them a shag.

For example, numerous stories shared on social media by women sharing WhatsApp/Text exchanges, where a guy messages the next day and asks the woman to pay him back for the dinner/drinks he bought, because she didn't put out, so in hindsight, the guy feels all aggrieved and like he didn't get his money's worth, like he was paying for drinks/dinner with the expectation of getting sex in return, and when that doesn't happen he asks for a refund, like his date was faulty/didn't meet up to expectations, it's like they think it's a business transaction/women are sex vending machines, put money in, get sex out.

 

[Dom Traynor]

No need to be a twat.

A lot of women are doing well, yes. I don't know how you can dispute this. There's a lot of people in the UK on good salaries and a lot of them are young women, in professions, in project management etc.

Who is being a twat? Aren't there men on good salaries, in professions etc? Your point is very confusing?

 

[BigMoaner]

There's a really weird conflicting duality out there as well.

On the one hand: be an alpha male, make big bucks, flash the cash, attract a woman with your ability to be a provider.

On the other hand: Fuck that bitch, she's a gold-digger, just interested in you for your money.

So men are simultaneously receiving messages that they're supposed to wine and dine a woman and pick up the tab, while also being resentful about paying for dinner and thinking that maybe buys them a shag.

For example, numerous stories shared on social media by women sharing WhatsApp/Text exchanges, where a guy messages the next day and asks the woman to pay him back for the dinner/drinks he bought, because she didn't put out, so in hindsight, the guy feels all aggrieved and like he didn't get his money's worth, like he was paying for drinks/dinner with the expectation of getting sex in return, and when that doesn't happen he asks for a refund, like his date was faulty/didn't meet up to expectations, it's like they think it's a business transaction/women are sex vending machines, put money in, get sex out.

The whole manosphere ideology is so deranged that it condradicts itself, is a weird chaos of opinions. Much like was observed in the anti vax movement during Covid. You get them contradicting themselves all in the same forum post or subtreddit but not even realising they are doing so. This sort of chaos is handy because any guy can just latch on to the bit that makes him feel the best. What is coherent though is that if you’re a woman, you’re the enemy. Deranged and very pathetic, really. Almost nothing redeemable in any of these communities. I find that most extreme outlooks are like this, even left ones.

 

[BigMoaner]

There's a really weird conflicting duality out there as well.

On the one hand: be an alpha male, make big bucks, flash the cash, attract a woman with your ability to be a provider.

On the other hand: Fuck that bitch, she's a gold-digger, just interested in you for your money.

So men are simultaneously receiving messages that they're supposed to wine and dine a woman and pick up the tab, while also being resentful about paying for dinner and thinking that maybe buys them a shag.

For example, numerous stories shared on social media by women sharing WhatsApp/Text exchanges, where a guy messages the next day and asks the woman to pay him back for the dinner/drinks he bought, because she didn't put out, so in hindsight, the guy feels all aggrieved and like he didn't get his money's worth, like he was paying for drinks/dinner with the expectation of getting sex in return, and when that doesn't happen he asks for a refund, like his date was faulty/didn't meet up to expectations, it's like they think it's a business transaction/women are sex vending machines, put money in, get sex out.

Of the dates I’ve been on that are proper dates in the conventional sense I have always paid for any food and most of the drinks. Not even sure why. Why not treat someone? Also to break from tradition and say “let’s split”, would just feel too uncomfortable and stingy and who wants to feel that when on a date? Hand on heart though not once have I thought: paying for this = sex pops out. It just doesn’t even enter my thinking at all. Also, no matter how hot, on a date I would want to have sex with people who want to have sex. If there’s no chemistry both ways then there’s no chemistry anyway, right?

It’s so weird how they approach it all. It’s like as you say a transaction or a business model or a science experiment. So what should be a fairly empty and harmless “tradition” - the man pays on the first date - is back to being infused with pathetic notions of entitlement to a woman’s body. I don’t really give feminism a lot of thought to be honest, I did when younger and from my mum, so I have rough ideas and, but if they actually gave feminist thinking and thought some time they might find themselves happier, less entitled, and more empathetic. It’s really not rocket science either: treat someone as an equal, treat someone like a human being. If they paid for a mates meal they wouldn’t then expect that mate to mow the lawn or do the dishes. They’d be embarrassed probably to even think that way. There’s something actually fundamentally morally bankrupt about them.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Is it still a thing that the man is expected to pay for the first date? I've been our of the dating pool for years, so have no idea.

 

[BigMoaner]

Is it still a thing that the man is expected to pay for the first date? I've been our of the dating pool for years, so have no idea.

Not really sure either but I still do just cos it’s one less thing to get awkward about. I’ve had people insist on them paying for things after the food which I guess is a counterweight.

 

[Sue]

Is it still a thing that the man is expected to pay for the first date? I've been our of the dating pool for years, so have no idea.

It's never been a thing for me and I frankly find it pretty weird that it (still) is for some people.

BigMoaner, it's not exactly a new concept, some men have aways felt paying makes them entitled to something.

Someone insisting on paying would make me feel extremely uncomfortable and pissed off and would be a dealbreaker though. They might see it as being nice, I'd see it as not being listened to/treated like an equal.

 

[likesfish]

the manosphere when you want to feel better because at least I'm not them . Its deranged shitbags with a side order of spree killer vibes

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's never been a thing for me and I frankly find it pretty weird that it (still) is for some people.

BigMoaner, it's not exactly a new concept, some men have aways felt paying makes them entitled to something.

Someone insisting on paying would make me feel extremely uncomfortable and pissed off and would be a dealbreaker though. They might see it as being nice, I'd see it as not being listened to/treated like an equal.

Yes, I always preferred to go for a casual drink on a first date, and take it in turns to buy the drinks.

I found dating really uncomfortable anyway and tended to avoid it as much as possible!

 

[BigMoaner]

It's never been a thing for me and I frankly find it pretty weird that it (still) is for some people.

BigMoaner, it's not exactly a new concept, some men have aways felt paying makes them entitled to something.

Someone insisting on paying would make me feel extremely uncomfortable and pissed off and would be a dealbreaker though. They might see it as being nice, I'd see it as not being listened to/treated like an equal.

Fair enough. When the card thing comes round I just tap it. Maybe should ask next time how we are paying.

 

[Cloo]

I suspect the big hang up on who pays for dinner is very much a US thing, and maybe just a bro thing even there.

 

[Cerberus]

My partner has always told her girls - 18 & 22 - to split the bill and to pay their way. She wants them to demonstrate their independence but is also fearful of what’s been discussed above: what ‘some’ men think they are ‘buying’ when picking up the bill. I completely back my partner in this as we are both aware of the need to be ‘careful’ when dating (such a shame we have to think like this even in 2024).

I’ve told my boys - 16 & 20 - that it’s ‘nice’ or the accepted norm to offer to pay the full bill, especially early on in dating. While I’ve discussed with them the creepy expectations of some men when paying, I’m also aware of the, shall we say, societal double standards that come attached with this topic.

I’ve been around the block long enough to know that men are judged on their response to ‘picking up the tab’. Female friends, exes, sisters and cousins all have stories of ‘tight’ men who have suggested bill splitting or have appeared comfortable with the woman paying.

In a world that is striving for equality, this topic feels as if it’s a strange holdover or hangover from a byegone era. I understand that there are also plenty of women (as demonstrated above) who don’t bat an eyelid when splitting the bill but there are still many who do.

 

[Sue]

Surely telling the girls this:

My partner has always told her girls - 18 & 22 - to split the bill and to pay their way. She wants them to demonstrate their independence but is also fearful of what’s been discussed above: what ‘some’ men think they are ‘buying’ when picking up the bill. I completely back my partner in this as we are both aware of the need to be ‘careful’ when dating (such a shame we have to think like this even in 2024).

And the boys this:

I’ve told my boys - 16 & 20 - that it’s ‘nice’ or the accepted norm to offer to pay the full bill, especially early on in dating.

Is part of the problem? Why not tell them the same thing?

While I’ve discussed with them the creepy expectations of some men when paying, I’m also aware of the, shall we say, societal double standards that come attached with this topic.

As evidenced above!

I’ve been around the block long enough to know that men are judged on their response to ‘picking up the tab’. Female friends, exes, sisters and cousins all have stories of ‘tight’ men who have suggested bill splitting or have appeared comfortable with the woman paying.

And I'd judge a man for not splitting the bill or being uncomfortable with me paying.

In a world that is striving for equality, this topic feels as if it’s a strange holdover or hangover from a byegone era. I understand that there are also plenty of women (as demonstrated above) who don’t bat an eyelid when splitting the bill but there are still many who do.

Tbh, I'm amazed the man paying is still a thing. It's certainly not in my world and never has been.

 

[BigMoaner]

I mean it’s interesting, I get the argument truly.

But for me getting the old note book out and diving up what’s owed just doesn’t feel a great look on a first date. So I just tap my card cos it feels path of least resistance.

 

[Cerberus]

I understand and for the most part agree with Sue’s argument. I suppose, in regard to parenting, it comes down to idealism verses pragmatism.

 

[BigMoaner]

wets pencil with tongue “right, so I had the prawn cocktail, and you had the…”

I suppose I could lead with “I am aware of all the feminist arguments for splitting the bill so therefor do you want to split?” but then that can just look like trying to feminism into their pants which is also not a great look.

Or A straightforward “Do you want to split this?” Just feels tight.

Taps card.

 

[BigMoaner]

Christ it’s grim though that there’s many who would think “why hasn’t the sex popped out”? And then the woman has a resentful man in her orbit. I do truly get theargument

 

[BigMoaner]

I suppose “do you feel comfortable with me paying?” Could work? Or “I’d like to pay. Are you okay with that?”

 

[Winot]

I suppose “do you feel comfortable with me paying?” Could work? Or “I’d like to pay. Are you okay with that?”

Surely the default should be to split the bill.

 

[Sue]

wets pencil with tongue “right, so I had the prawn cocktail, and you had the…”

I suppose I could lead with “I am aware of all the feminist arguments for splitting the bill so therefor do you want to split?” but then that can just look like trying to feminism into their pants which is also not a great look.

This feels like massively overthinking things!

Or A straightforward “Do you want to split this?” Just feels tight.

Taps card.

It's weird you think it feels tight.

 

[Orang Utan]

On the first dates I’ve been on, it hasn’t even been negotiated - we took turns buying drinks and just naturally split the bill for food with little comment. I’ve never felt any external or internal pressure to pay the whole bill. Can’t remember having any discussions about it with my peers. The only external models I can think of is watching people date on sitcoms, which hardly serves as a reliable indicator of current mores.
I suspect that we’ve regressed if anecdotal evidence is to be believed.

 

[xenon]

I suppose “do you feel comfortable with me paying?” Could work? Or “I’d like to pay. Are you okay with that?”

Not that I go on many dates, and I never go for dinner as a first date. Well might get food after a few drinks. but I just say I’ll get this. And usually she’ll say let’s split it, fine.

 

[Rob Ray]

Honestly if someone on a shared financial footing had a negative reaction to sharing the bill I'd think less of them regardless of gender. If there's a significant financial difference in my favour I'll pay most of the time. It should be about capacity not some cockeyed misunderstanding of how tradition works.