Why are more young men than older seeing feminism as a bad thing?

[muscovyduck]

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever. There's always at least a slight overimportance placed on their parents jobs or family narratives. Some sort of odd attitude to work, again an overimportance they place on their role or an arrogance or something.

All the ones I know had really promising lives ahead of them when we were students, and on top of that either physically attractive then or obviously would be later down the line. But it's all gone horribly wrong for them and it's terrifying watching it playing out. No idea if this is generation specific or not, feels similar to the phenomena of the male mid life crisis that was A Big Thing twenty years or so ago

 

[Aladdin]

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever. There's always at least a slight overimportance placed on their parents jobs or family narratives. Some sort of odd attitude to work, again an overimportance they place on their role or an arrogance or something.

All the ones I know had really promising lives ahead of them when we were students, and on top of that either physically attractive then or obviously would be later down the line. But it's all gone horribly wrong for them and it's terrifying watching it playing out. No idea if this is generation specific or not, feels similar to the phenomena of the male mid life crisis that was A Big Thing twenty years or so ago

To be fair..and of course this is sad....there are plenty women in similar situations.

And this is not whataboutery.. in case anyone thinks it might be.

 

[muscovyduck]

To be fair..and of course this is sad....there are plenty women in similar situations.

And this is not whataboutery.. in case anyone thinks it might be.

Do you mean the issues affecting people or their behaviour?

 

[Aladdin]

Do you mean the issues affecting people or their behaviour?

Issues affecting them.

Its probably worse now than ever
Young people in their 20s and 30s unable to afford to leave home...etc.

 

[BigMoaner]

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever. There's always at least a slight overimportance placed on their parents jobs or family narratives. Some sort of odd attitude to work, again an overimportance they place on their role or an arrogance or something.

All the ones I know had really promising lives ahead of them when we were students, and on top of that either physically attractive then or obviously would be later down the line. But it's all gone horribly wrong for them and it's terrifying watching it playing out. No idea if this is generation specific or not, feels similar to the phenomena of the male mid life crisis that was A Big Thing twenty years or so ago

That's interesting, the kind of lower middle manager misogony, with a life of drab ease. This is why I suspect that TRAVEL!!!! on dating apps is so big, the need to show some kind of variance from the utter addicted, predictable, unheroic misery of neoliberalism.

Other tate types:

I;ve warbelled on here about my £120k a year, 6 foot, very good looking, very charismatic lawyer mate - i mention his features because he really did not fit the model of "incel" - who went deeply into the rabit hole after his divorce. Our relationship was on the rocks in a big way and I told him so. I said to him at one point "I don't want to hear this", this was after many arguments. He did finally stop talking about it, got in a relationship, and he doesn't bring it up now - which i am thankful for because i like him, he was a great and warm support to me going through a tough time. He has since moved away but he's his usual funny, relaxed self when I meet him. He did say to me recently "I was in a terrible space and all those fucking grifters on youtube really didn't help." Thing is he is inherently clever. well read. CEntre right, i guess, when i met him, but we used to ahve some fantastic long political conversations. Time will tell if he truly has left all taht behidn.

The other Tate followers in my life are men are work with. I work from the management sides of the trades a lot and the lads i mention are all working class from working class backgrounds. Don't read books (and proudly admit it) and barely look up from their phones when lounging around waiting for the next job. They are from all sorts of ehtnic backgrounds. All early twenties. The way they view women and the way they treat women is horrendous. One was proudly the other week talking about he "said all the right things on the date" went back to the gals, had sex, said he needed the toilet and left. I mean to me that's rapey energy. Absoloutly horrendous. I avoid them if I can. The rest of the team - of say 50 of us - all from working class backgrounds and all shades of the political spectrum are the complete opposite at least to each other. There's no language like that, ever. They talk about women with no weird hatred lurking behind, no comments in the street etc.

 

[muscovyduck]

Issues affecting them.

I think with women it's different, because if you accept the underlying cause of the problems you know you'll gain power by overcoming them. Men (and to be fair, a fair few women) have this mental paradox they're grapling with - would they prefer to keep hold of the power they have as a trade off for the power they lose from the system?

We can see this in the big value systems we hold as individuals but also the smaller day to day decisions that tot up to those horrible dead end lives. There's plenty of reasons people do or don't use public transport, for example, but this demographic who statistically would be the safest and most able to access it seem the most scared to use it. I would guess the perceived lack of control and loss of status is a bad trade off in their eyes, regardless of what the actual cost/benefit is.

 

[Dom Traynor]

I don't believe Gen Z are worse than Gen X (my generation), I think older men have learned when they can and can't share their views, I agree with whoever said men aged 30 to 50 are a problem, that's when people have either fucked themselves up or learned how to hide deviant behaviour or ideas - which is what we're talking about. It's not natural to be misogynistic, just as racism isn't natural. I do think it might seem worse because of social media and people sharing their thoughts more widely.

Maybe also it's harder to escape these ideas when I was in my Twenties in a big city I'd just stop hanging out with people who came out with shitty stuff, we all knew who they were and avoided them but if I watch one interesting physics or gaming video on YouTube I start getting recommendations for toxic stuff straight away thanks to the algorithm. It's not just that getting sucked into that rabbit hole would necessarily influence someone's view (although it does) but it has an echo chamber effect and they think those ideas are acceptable and normal.

 

[BigMoaner]

I don't believe Gen Z are worse than Gen X (my generation), I think older men have learned when they can and can't share their views, I agree with whoever said men aged 30 to 50 are a problem, that's when people have either fucked themselves up or learned how to hide deviant behaviour or ideas - which is what we're talking about. It's not natural to be misogynistic, just as racism isn't natural. I do think it might seem worse because of social media and people sharing their thoughts more widely.

Maybe also it's harder to escape these ideas when I was in my Twenties in a big city I'd just stop hanging out with people who came out with shitty stuff, we all knew who they were and avoided them but if I watch one interesting physics or gaming video on YouTube I start getting recommendations for toxic stuff straight away thanks to the algorithm. It's not just that getting sucked into that rabbit hole would necessarily influence someone's view (although it does) but it has an echo chamber effect and they think those ideas are acceptable and normal.

I think one possible way that YouTube could actually show some real social responsibility is to stop pushing all political content onto the algorithm, left and right. People can still search for it and find it. But stop thrusting that shit into peoples lives.

They won’t though. I mean musk even pays folk like Tate now.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Also let's not let millenial men off the hook either, I dated a young millenial woman for a year or so and we are still good friends and she is really woke and intelligent but the number of times she expected me to have pretty horrible and offensive to me opinions and expectations because of her experience with men the same age was shocking to even me. Or at least what was shocking was her acceptance of it before me even saying anything or asking me if that's what I expected...

 

[Dom Traynor]

Final rambling nonsense from me for a while but I used to work in a very progressive workplace with lots of strong feminist women including in leadership roles and we had a colleague who we all knew was a bit of wrong-un but we couldn't put our fingers on it. He moved to a new high profile career and has since been exposed very publically and destroyed his own life as a result of his treatment of one brave woman who worked for him in that new career who came forward.

In WhatsApp chats with former colleagues we have asked each over what we could have done to draw the truth out earlier how many people we don't know about that maybe he abused or harrased when he worked with us, but maybe it was the new powerful role that enabled him? Maybe he was emboldened?

 

[Cloo]

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever. There's always at least a slight overimportance placed on their parents jobs or family narratives. Some sort of odd attitude to work, again an overimportance they place on their role or an arrogance or something.

All the ones I know had really promising lives ahead of them when we were students, and on top of that either physically attractive then or obviously would be later down the line. But it's all gone horribly wrong for them and it's terrifying watching it playing out. No idea if this is generation specific or not, feels similar to the phenomena of the male mid life crisis that was A Big Thing twenty years or so ago

A lot of younger people are now, understably, feeling furious and betrayed that they did all the things they were told to do to have an independent life and have nice things - study hard, get good grades, go to uni, get a 'good' job - and they are now barely keeping their heads above water unless they can live with their parents. And then even worse, older people who don't know shit about it are having the cheek to say the younger people 'don't understand hard work' and are entitled and just need to tighten their belts a bit without understanding their belts are tightened as hard as they can be already, and they're barely scraping by - quite rightly, again, many younger people are not prepared to work hours they're not paid for or to accept roles with insulting pay and conditions. And I guess some men might find this extra-insulting to their manhood and maybe women are sadly more resigned to unfairness, although obviously they're furious too, but maybe less likely to expect anything in life to be 'fair'.

 

[BigMoaner]

A lot of younger people are now, understably, feeling furious and betrayed that they did all the things they were told to do to have an independent life and have nice things - study hard, get good grades, go to uni, get a 'good' job - and they are now barely keeping their heads above water unless they can live with their parents. And then even worse, older people who don't know shit about it are having the cheek to say the younger people 'don't understand hard work' and are entitled and just need to tighten their belts a bit without understanding their belts are tightened as hard as they can be already, and they're barely scraping by - quite rightly, again, many younger people are not prepared to work hours they're not paid for or to accept roles with insulting pay and conditions. And I guess some men might find this extra-insulting to their manhood and maybe women are sadly more resigned to unfairness, although obviously they're furious too, but maybe less likely to expect anything in life to be 'fair'.

Your post reminded me of a rant one of my podcast go-toos went on. From 41 minutes about the "Clowns of TicTok" (a right wing twitter channel). The pdocast is two young artists with leftist leanings who discuss art, post modernism, critical theory, and have some interesting guests. often very funny. but yes the rant is very similar to your post and it's a marvelous rant and true. from 41 minutes, lasts about 5 mins:

 

[BigMoaner]

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever. There's always at least a slight overimportance placed on their parents jobs or family narratives. Some sort of odd attitude to work, again an overimportance they place on their role or an arrogance or something.

All the ones I know had really promising lives ahead of them when we were students, and on top of that either physically attractive then or obviously would be later down the line. But it's all gone horribly wrong for them and it's terrifying watching it playing out. No idea if this is generation specific or not, feels similar to the phenomena of the male mid life crisis that was A Big Thing twenty years or so ago

It's funny, reading this back, I have been getting a bit triggered on dating apps a bit recently - because a lot of the women, from the pics at least, seem to have globe trotting lives, and always look expensively dressed, and always sipping champagne in fine looking resturants, sitting on beaches by tropical water etc. They look, in simple terms, rich, or with mountains of disposable. And I think "fuck I have no chance" with my strict monthly budget, and my little liddle weekly shop. I have a nice enough life style wise, but fine dining, except maybe once or twice a year, and distant travel is a far off dream. And I have tried to look at why I feel so inadequate sometimes when swiping - is it because my "manliness" is under threat. No, I know I am man (if we are using "manosphere" catagories here), I am a great dad, a great coparent, a good friend,. I work hard and support my colleagues. I support my two elderly parents. I think what inesucrities is triggered is just that by not living up to that image they present, I am somehow less attractive. Which, lets be honest, I probably am. They would want someone who can match there lifestyle, which is fair enough - like tends to date like. Many men I would think have always looked at rich well healed women and thought "no chance". They shrug it off and move on, which i always ultimately do. But now they can have those feelings and find, eh, communities online that will lead them into darker theories. "this is where feminism has got you, a lesser being than her" and all that horse shit. The manosphere have entrwined notions of attraction (educated people tending to date date educated people, rich people tending to date other rich people, etc) with core "essences" like masculinity and femininity. They don't see that sexual relations, like everything else, tend to fall along class lines.

 

[Dom Traynor]

A lot of younger people are now, understably, feeling furious and betrayed And I guess some men might find this extra-insulting to their manhood and maybe women are sadly more resigned to unfairness, although obviously they're furious too, but maybe less likely to expect anything in life to be 'fair'.

Yes to all of what you said but especially this.
My opinion is :

Let's not let young men off the hook or seek to explain youthful hate when women are experiencing exactly the same collapse in expectations from a lower starting position and there hasn't been an increase in racism for example among young white women.

Secondly I'm not convinced Gen Zers are any worse than Gen X or millennials, just more open.

Point 2 is good because it means hatred towards women isn't increasing.
Point 2 is if true also a problem because it means there is always a sizable hardcore of men who will hate women.

I don't believe this is insoluble under capitalism or anything either

I've seen young white men move away from racism but I've never seen young men move away from misogyny...

Is that because it was harder to identify in the past?

Could a kind of Show Racism the Red Card or PREVENT type approach work? Has anyone tried this?

 

[Humberto]

I don't think it's as bad as it was in the past. Teenage pregnancy has halved in a decade.

Most working class girls thought they were thick/worthless. Not even going back that far, say early 2000s. Don't know about now.

 

[xenon]

Some excellent points on this thread. I think BigMoaner has in particular made some. our atomised but hyper connected world distorted by market forces and where systemic problems are recited as failure of the individual to be better, fitter, smarter, more go getting leave many people feeling worthless useless and angry. of course this is experienced differently for men to women in many ways because patriarchy. And despite having a pocket computer where you can practically talk to anyone in the world it’s very hard to make meaningful relationships, sexual or otherwise. The whole commodification of human experience leaves some being pray to filth like Tate.

 

[xenon]

It's funny, reading this back, I have been getting a bit triggered on dating apps a bit recently - because a lot of the women, from the pics at least, seem to have globe trotting lives, and always look expensively dressed, and always sipping champagne in fine looking resturants, sitting on beaches by tropical water etc. They look, in simple terms, rich, or with mountains of disposable. And I think "fuck I have no chance" with my strict monthly budget, and my little liddle weekly shop. I have a nice enough life style wise, but fine dining, except maybe once or twice a year, and distant travel is a far off dream. And I have tried to look at why I feel so inadequate sometimes when swiping - is it because my "manliness" is under threat. No, I know I am man (if we are using "manosphere" catagories here), I am a great dad, a great coparent, a good friend,. I work hard and support my colleagues. I support my two elderly parents. I think what inesucrities is triggered is just that by not living up to that image they present, I am somehow less attractive. Which, lets be honest, I probably am. They would want someone who can match there lifestyle, which is fair enough - like tends to date like. Many men I would think have always looked at rich well healed women and thought "no chance". They shrug it off and move on, which i always ultimately do. But now they can have those feelings and find, eh, communities online that will lead them into darker theories. "this is where feminism has got you, a lesser being than her" and all that horse shit. The manosphere have entrwined notions of attraction (educated people tending to date date educated people, etc) with core "essences" like masculinity and femininity. They don't see that sexual relations, like everything else, tend to fall along class lines.

Oh yeah. it’s the other side of the coin. same game but it affects the sex is differently I think. It can if I’m honest leave you feeling a bit bitter. fortunately I am older, slightly wiser and do have female friends so I’m not drifting into misogyny. rather a cynical general outlook which in its own way is not healthy.

 

[Dom Traynor]

This is off topic but you might be on the wrong apps. And tbh I know exactly where those women with the travel and wine pics are coming from, for some people me included travel is such an important part of our lives it's important to send a message that we will want well travelled people as well. But there's plenty of women out there that do live different lives, they'll just be on different apps. In NZ they're on Ok Cupid or Tinder while Bumble tends to be for the wine, travel and paddle boarding pics. Also often they have kids and can barely afford the time to use apps.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

No-one has mentioned Jordan Peterson (or if they have I’ve missed it) but I get the feeling his popularity is part of all this grimness as well.

I've got a male friend in his fifties who's occasionally mentioned Jordan Peterson. I guess older guys are more his demographic and younger guys are more Tate's demographic?

This friend's mentioned things to me now and again over recent years and when he first mentioned Peterson a few years ago I hadn't heard of him so Googled. Next time friend mentioned Peterson, I gently questioned friend along the lines of doesn't Peterson have some dodgy ideas about/attitudes towards women and iirc friend vaguely acknowledged some of Peterson's stuff is problematic but said something along the lines of he talks some sense about some other stuff. I think we agreed to disagree although I had to confess I'd just read a bit about it (and I recall what I read seemed a bit weird and worrying).

Since then he's mentioned Peterson maybe a handful of times, including when we were out drinking with another (male) friend, who's more of a drinking buddy of my friend than a mate of mine iyswim, we're friendly enough but not best buddies. We often socialise separately, me & friend, friend & drinking buddy, occasionally all meet up. So they've had blokey chats in my absence where Peterson's come up.

So when my friend went to the loo not long after mentioning something in front of both of us, me and my friend's drinking buddy basically had a quick conversation with one another along the lines of 'Has he gone down the MRA internet rabbit hole? how far gone is he? How bad is it?'

His mate said he'd been a bit worried about him watching Peterson videos and reading stuff. I think my friend maybe talks to his mate about it more than me. I mean, he's not really going to start spouting lots of MRA/misogynist shite at me. Although by all accounts his mate was giving him short shrift about it too.

Both me and my friend's drinking buddy are more raging lefty than our mutual friend who's always been a bit more of a centrist, socially liberal, fiscally conservative kind of person. And so I have wondered whether me and the lefty mate who are more into current affairs and politics and politically ranty basically shutting him down with that kind of nonsense means our mutual friend's maybe further down the internet rabbit hole than either of us realise but he doesn't engage with us on this issue because he knows he won't find a particularly receptive audience.

Basically, I don't know if he's gone down that road so far that he's 'swallowed the red pill' and whether he's silently judging me and the mate for being unenlightened blue pill folk. I don't think so, but I can't be sure what's going on in his head, all I know is he's still reading/watching that kind of stuff, in that he first mentioned Peterson a few years ago and mentioned him again as recently as last year, so it wasn't a temporary phase that he left behind when his views were challenged by me and the other mate. Well, not so much * his * views, because he wasn't saying things in that sense, like he'd totally adopted them, more like he's still relaying info as Petersen's views, if that makes sense, so he's not totally assimilated Peterson's views. Yet.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

My 22 year old lodger seems harmless enough, spends most of his time in his room or explaining how everything that has happened to him is someone else’s fault. Not the end of the world but his language when talking about a woman who recently rejected him was fucking shocking

Other 20s kids I know all seem to know they are in the grinder of life but seem to focus on weirder social media propagated explanations for how shit their current life and future looking rather than the more obvious culprits

Social fucking media

I never expected the youth to be anti vax anti trans, chem-trail great re-setter misogynists

That kind of thing is horrifying. I've been called a bitch and a ho on internet dating sites for politely saying I wasn't interested and wishing guys all the best finding someone.

One of the guys had popped up in the chat facility and said Hello, so I checked out his profile and saw he stipulated that women must be size 10-12 so I politely said I didn't meet his requirements and wished him all the best. And I think I explained to another guy that unfortunately his name was the same as an abusive ex-bf I'd had.

But I've seen some even more awful examples on social media, guys sliding into a girl's DMs and being all flirty and flattering and then when she says thanks but no thanks, it's like Jekyll and Hyde, they turn proper nasty.

I hate the idea of game playing, but I've seen so many examples on social media of guys with initially pleasant openers, who quickly turn into 'why aren't you interested, I'm a nice guy' and then it degenerates into 'fuck you bitch, no one would even want to rape you' that the thought has crossed my mind that if a guy did ever ask me out, I'd be tempted to say 'no' in the first instance to see how he responded, would he turn psycho? And then if he didn't, if he responded with a modicum of decency, he'd pass the test so I could go on a date.

Because those 'nice guys' jeez, it's like women can't really tell what a guy's really like until they've rejected them. Someone might be a genuinely nice guy. But how do you tell the genuinely nice guys from the ones who are thinking it's a transaction, they say Heeeey, give a girl a few compliments, maybe buy her a drink, and then it's like she owes them sex. It's so fucked up when you see so many of those conversations, well, not so much conversations as sickening displays of men treating women as objects, men acting entitled to women's attentions and affections and bodies, and if the women have the audacity to not be interested in putting out for them, they unleash a torrent of abuse and even threats of violence.

And it's like a lot of men, young men, have no idea how unacceptable their attitudes and behaviour are.

 

[BigMoaner]

That kind of thing is horrifying. I've been called a bitch and a ho on internet dating sites for politely saying I wasn't interested and wishing guys all the best finding someone.

One of the guys had popped up in the chat facility and said Hello, so I checked out his profile and saw he stipulated that women must be size 10-12 so I politely said I didn't meet his requirements and wished him all the best. And I think I explained to another guy that unfortunately his name was the same as an abusive ex-bf I'd had.

But I've seen some even more awful examples on social media, guys sliding into a girl's DMs and being all flirty and flattering and then when she says thanks but no thanks, it's like Jekyll and Hyde, they turn proper nasty.

I hate the idea of game playing, but I've seen so many examples on social media of guys with initially pleasant openers, who quickly turn into 'why aren't you interested, I'm a nice guy' and then it degenerates into 'fuck you bitch, no one would even want to rape you' that the thought has crossed my mind that if a guy did ever ask me out, I'd be tempted to say 'no' in the first instance to see how he responded, would he turn psycho? And then if he didn't, if he responded with a modicum of decency, he'd pass the test so I could go on a date.

Because those 'nice guys' jeez, it's like women can't really tell what a guy's really like until they've rejected them. Someone might be a genuinely nice guy. But how do you tell the genuinely nice guys from the ones who are thinking it's a transaction, they say Heeeey, give a girl a few compliments, maybe buy her a drink, and then it's like she owes them sex. It's so fucked up when you see so many of those conversations, well, not so much conversations as sickening displays of men treating women as objects, women acting entitled to women's attentions and affections and bodies, and if the women have the audacity to not be interested in putting out for them, they unleash a torrent of abuse and even threats of violence.

And it's like a lot of men, young men, have no idea how unacceptable their attitudes and behaviour are.

Yes, like the old idea of their being a huge difference between being nice and being good.

 

[Cat Fan]

I think some of the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of what women actually want vs. what some of these men think women want.

They think they have to be super muscular, aggressive/assertive and spend lots of money showing off. Then they get frustrated and angry either because it's unachievable or because it doesn't work.

I think nine times out of ten women would prefer someone who is kind, looks after their loved ones and has a good sense of humour. Self confidence is a good thing but not overconfidence or arrogance.

The algorithm pushes people to this unrealistic influencer stuff because the best way to keep eyeballs on the screen is generating feelings of envy and insecurity.

People form much better quality relationships offline than online I think.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Seems to me that MRA types choose to lump all women together as one group, rather than seeing us as individuals. The idea that I would behave and react the same way as someone else, simply because we're both women, is bizarre and lazy thinking.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes to all of what you said but especially this.
My opinion is :

Let's not let young men off the hook or seek to explain youthful hate when women are experiencing exactly the same collapse in expectations from a lower starting position and there hasn't been an increase in racism for example among young white women.

Secondly I'm not convinced Gen Zers are any worse than Gen X or millennials, just more open.

Point 2 is good because it means hatred towards women isn't increasing.
Point 2 is if true also a problem because it means there is always a sizable hardcore of men who will hate women.

I don't believe this is insoluble under capitalism or anything either

I've seen young white men move away from racism but I've never seen young men move away from misogyny...

Is that because it was harder to identify in the past?

Could a kind of Show Racism the Red Card or PREVENT type approach work? Has anyone tried this?

Women are doing well, they outperform boys and men throughout the education system, their social skills are in high demand in graduate employment.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Women are doing well, they outperform boys and men throughout the education system, their social skills are in high demand in graduate employment.

All women are doing well are they?

 

[Red Cat]

All women are doing well are they?

No need to be a twat.

A lot of women are doing well, yes. I don't know how you can dispute this. There's a lot of people in the UK on good salaries and a lot of them are young women, in professions, in project management etc.

 

[hitmouse]

It's funny, reading this back, I have been getting a bit triggered on dating apps a bit recently - because a lot of the women, from the pics at least, seem to have globe trotting lives, and always look expensively dressed, and always sipping champagne in fine looking resturants, sitting on beaches by tropical water etc. They look, in simple terms, rich, or with mountains of disposable. And I think "fuck I have no chance" with my strict monthly budget, and my little liddle weekly shop. I have a nice enough life style wise, but fine dining, except maybe once or twice a year, and distant travel is a far off dream.

Probably stating the obvious here, but can't be stressed enough that you know nothing about someone's life from seeing five pictures or whatever - you can go to a fancy restaurant once a year and have a foreign holiday once every five years (or have more frequent holidays to Skeggy or Tynemouth or wherever and just be good at making the beach look exciting), and still have enough photos to make your profile look "fancy". Odds are that most if not all of these people are spending as much time as anyone else just sat alone in their rooms scrolling through their phones/laptop, it's just that most people don't choose to take pictures advertising that bit of their lives, at least not for dating app purposes.

Seems to me that MRA types choose to lump all women together as one group, rather than seeing us as individuals. The idea that I would behave and react the same way as someone else, simply because we're both women, is bizarre and lazy thinking.

Yep, this kind of essentialist thinking is so widespread - the incels say "women want this specific type of man and you/I can never become it so you're alone forever", the likes of Tate say "women want this specific type of man and I can teach you how to become it", so many people (and by "people" I mean "men", thinking about it) seem to have trouble with the idea that "some women are looking for this and other women are looking for that and different women want something else entirely, because there are literally billions of women in the world and they're not all identical".

Still fondly remember a conversation/argument with an old workmate of mine, who was a basically decent type but seemed to be influenced by some of these manosphere-type ideas, who was spouting some of this stuff about how all women are attracted to rich, high-status men, and another workmate just went "but think about it, the vast majority of people in the world, including the vast majority of men, are not rich. And yet new babies are born every day and the human race hasn't gone extinct yet, so it seems like there's a flaw in your logic somewhere."

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Isn't the other side of the incel thing that they have these weird twisted ideas of what constitutes a high status woman, or at least the sort of woman a high status man would be with? So it's not just a case of 'loads of women just want a decent person' because they don't want one of those women.

 

[Cat Fan]

No need to be a twat.

A lot of women are doing well, yes. I don't know how you can dispute this. There's a lot of people in the UK on good salaries and a lot of them are young women, in professions, in project management etc.

True that a lot of women are doing well, yes, but I think that gender pay gap statistics show that we still have a long way to go before we approach a level playing field

 

[hitmouse]

No need to be a twat.

A lot of women are doing well, yes. I don't know how you can dispute this. There's a lot of people in the UK on good salaries and a lot of them are young women, in professions, in project management etc.

Just on this bit, I think it's worth coming back to what muscovyduck said above:

While I agree with these points I think the alarm when it comes to the late 20s crew is that the men who've fallen for the Tate era manosphere stuff are the men who have literally no reason to. The £40k salary engineers and graphic designers with decent relationships with their parents. There's no oppression there but not really dizzying privilege either. But there's something fundamentally wrong and empty about the way they're living their lives, the isolation of driving everywhere and using self service tills and messaging constantly and everything being available all the time but in the lowest quality format, whether that's social connection or media or whatever.

Which suggests it's not just a question of "doing well" in strictly economic terms, but also about much broader issues, which I don't think women are exempt from. And of course while there's a lot of people on high salaries, there's still a lot more who aren't, of whatever gender, even women who are doctors are still facing below-inflation pay rises and so on.