US election 2020 thread

[redsquirrel]

Surely this makes Trump's and the GOP's (or the GOP as it currently stands) brand of right-populsim as a huge (but brilliantly done) con trick, as they have absolutely no intention of truly spreading power to the people or taking it back to them, but on execising it themsleves, in the name of 'the people' but as a new authoritarian elite?
e2a: and indeed invoking 'the people' to give themselves unlimited power

Empowering the people (or the working class) does not mean backing liberal representative democracy. That is not just true for populists but for socialists, workers are not empowered by having to go through strike ballots. Like socialists many populists would see other forms of democracy as more meaningful and important than elections of representatives.
There is also the debate about what "the people" means. Different populists would give different answers. Radical right populists would tend to exclude certain groups - immigrants, felons, minorities etc - from "the people". (Not that such exclusion is solely the presence of the radical right, plenty of liberals do the same).

Yes, agreed. Populism to me is just a few steps removed from fascism - if that

Then, at the least, you are using a definition that is not used by many (most) writers on the subject. For a start where does left-wing populism sit in your map? Is that also only 'a few steps removed from fascism'?
Revelli, Mudde and Goodwin (to take three writers on populism) all have very different politics but all would draw clear distinctions between radical right populism and fascism.

EDIT: This was written after Trump had been in power two months. Four years after Trump's victory there is still a Democratic Party (which is probably going to win and win big), there are still trade unions, there are not 10,000s of left wingers in camps. We know what Nazi Germany, Facist Italy and Francoist Spain were like after 4 years of fascism, Trump's actions have been appalling but the USA is not comparable to those fascist states.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hmmm. Can you give examples of populist leaders who appealed above the existing system directly to 'the people' in order that the leaders themselves could have less, not more, power? For me, that is a defining feature.

 

[redsquirrel]

Defining feature of what? Populism? Fascism?

 

[spring-peeper]

Trump wrong that a winner has to be announced Election Night

As Nov. 3 approaches, President Donald Trump has been expressing alarm about ballot counting extending beyond Election N

www.politifact.com

As Nov. 3 approaches, President Donald Trump has been expressing alarm about ballot counting extending beyond Election Night.

"Big problems and discrepancies with Mail In Ballots all over the USA. Must have final total on November 3rd," Trump tweeted on Oct. 26

The following day, Trump added in remarks to reporters, "It would be very, very proper and very nice if a winner were declared on Nov. 3, instead of counting ballots for two weeks, which is totally inappropriate, and I don't believe that's by our laws."

However, the president was wrong. When the media "calls" a presidential race — which may or may not happen on Election Night — it is because they feel that projections from the current results are strong enough to announce one candidate over the other. It’s not an official result.

"There are no official results on Election Night — there never have been," said Edward B. Foley, an Ohio State University constitutional law professor who specializes in elections. "Election Night tallies are always just preliminary, pending certification of the canvass of returns under state law, which takes time. Every state has a law on this point."

 

[gentlegreen]

You would think he would hold out till the last minute ... hanging chads anyone ?

 

[platinumsage]

I heard today that 80% of Republicans plan to vote in person, but only 59% of Democrats. Meanwhile a recent election in New York saw 20% of mail-in votes rejected due to e.g. missing or differing signatures etc.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I heard today that 80% of Republicans plan to vote in person, but only 59% of Democrats. Meanwhile a recent election in New York saw 20% of mail-in votes rejected due to e.g. missing or differing signatures etc.

Not really 'meanwhile' if the second bit refers to a different election is it?

 

[platinumsage]

Not really 'meanwhile' if the second bit refers to a different election is it?

I think it's the best indicator from recent high mail-in COVID elections, in which most mail-in voters are doing so for the first time. Certainly lots more mail-in votes will be rejected than in-person ones, and this will adversely affect Democrat votes, whether materially so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[redsquirrel]

I struggle to think of a 'populist' whose intentions were otherwise, tbh. The appeal over and above existing processes is never done because the person seeking to be leader thinks the current system gives leaders too much power.

Yes, agreed. Populism to me is just a few steps removed from fascism - if that

How do the two of you deal with the People's Party? is it your view of that the People's Party was "just a few steps removed from fascism'? Or do you follow Jan Werner Muller in excluding the first party to specificity declare itself populist as a populist party?

 

[petee]

well.

Dr. Bill Bledsoe says latest political ads using his name are "fraud"

Dr. Bill Bledsoe has been the target of political ads for the Senate race that he is no longer running for, and he's filed a cease and desist letter to all those behind those ads using his name. "They are manipulating, and they are doing an absolute opposite of what I believe in and what I've...

wach.com

WACH FOX News reached out to the SC Election Commission. A spokesperson confirmed the Constitution Party never officially withdrew from the race, and so he is still considered a candidate for office.

 

[petee]

also, this is chris chrsite, republican. the "greg" he's recalling is the GOP candidate for montana governor, the guy who body-slammed the guardian writer.

1: why is chrsitie doing this?
2: is that a message sewn into christie's fleece? he went there, but curious time for such attire.

 

[Streathamite]

How do the two of you deal with the People's Party?

Which 'People's Party' are you specifically referring to? It's a much-used name.

 

[Streathamite]

Four years after Trump's victory there is still a Democratic Party (which is probably going to win and win big), there are still trade unions, there are not 10,000s of left wingers in camps. We know what Nazi Germany, Facist Italy and Francoist Spain were like after 4 years of fascism, Trump's actions have been appalling but the USA is not comparable to those fascist states.

My take on trump; he's an old school Elitist (everything about him is elitist) who has hijacked the elements of populism (the 'outsider' label, the rabble-rousing, the pose as Man Of The People, the anti-establishment, anti-elite rhetoric, the simple/simplistic solutions) for mthe ends and the ultimate purtpose of a capitalist, conservatve, authoritarian and ultimately elitiist agenda - except his elite is Ivanka, Jared, Meadows, McEnany...and whoever is temporarily useful to him.
What he actually believes iin is a mile from say - original and genuine anti-elite populists like William jennings Bryan (a prototypical class warrior in a country whose self-image is built on a complete disavowal of European-style class systems)

 

[JTG]

Hawaii has become the first state to exceed its 2016 turn out before election day

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How do the two of you deal with the People's Party? is it your view of that the People's Party was "just a few steps removed from fascism'? Or do you follow Jan Werner Muller in excluding the first party to specificity declare itself populist as a populist party?

Sorry, I don't really have an overarching theory. It's not really much more than a gut reaction when I hear the term 'populist'. Invariably those I first think of who would be described like that have demagogue tendencies and seek to subvert/change legal/electoral systems in order to channel more power to themselves through direct appeals to the people. That could be left or right - it would include figures like Hugo Chavez.

 

[two sheds]

Nooooooo

Hackers steal $2m from Trump reelection fund, says GOP

Hackers redirected payments to vendors providing direct mail services and hats

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Good news, finally:

Hundreds of President Donald Trump's supporters were left in the freezing cold for hours after a rally at an airfield in Omaha, Nebraska, on Tuesday night, with some walking around 3 miles to waiting buses and others being taken away in ambulances.

Hundreds of Trump supporters stuck on freezing cold Omaha airfield after rally, 7 taken to hospitals

Overall, 30 people were "contacted" for medical reasons, the Omaha Police Department said in a statement.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Gerry1time]

Nooooooo

Hackers steal $2m from Trump reelection fund, says GOP

Hackers redirected payments to vendors providing direct mail services and hats

www.independent.co.uk

 

[existentialist]

Good news, finally:

Hundreds of President Donald Trump's supporters were left in the freezing cold for hours after a rally at an airfield in Omaha, Nebraska, on Tuesday night, with some walking around 3 miles to waiting buses and others being taken away in ambulances.

Hundreds of Trump supporters stuck on freezing cold Omaha airfield after rally, 7 taken to hospitals

Overall, 30 people were "contacted" for medical reasons, the Omaha Police Department said in a statement.

news.yahoo.com

Shit as I think Trump is, and idiotic as his supporters may be, I struggle to see how a bunch of people being left stranded in sub-zero temperatures is "good news"

 

[redsquirrel]

Which 'People's Party' are you specifically referring to? It's a much-used name.

The People's Party/Populist Party/Populists in the US at the end of the 19th Century. The first party to group to specifically declare itself populist, and that backed William Jennings Bryan who you mentioned.

My take on trump; he's an old school Elitist (everything about him is elitist) who has hijacked the elements of populism (the 'outsider' label, the rabble-rousing, the pose as Man Of The People, the anti-establishment, anti-elite rhetoric, the simple/simplistic solutions) for mthe ends and the ultimate purtpose of a capitalist, conservatve, authoritarian and ultimately elitiist agenda - except his elite is Ivanka, Jared, Meadows, McEnany...and whoever is temporarily useful to him.
What he actually believes iin is a mile from say - original and genuine anti-elite populists like William jennings Bryan (a prototypical class warrior in a country whose self-image is built on a complete disavowal of European-style class systems)

OK now I'm confused. You said populism was next to fascism, now you appear to be saying that there are anti-elite populists but that Trump is not really a populist. I genuinely do not understand your position here.

However, there is nothing inconsistent about a populism that promotes a capitalist, conservative and authoritarian agenda. And nepotism/patronage is pretty common for populist groups. Orbán's Fidesz is clearly now the "elite" in Hungary and is capitalist, conservative and authoritarian but I, and many others, would still deem it as populist.

Sorry, I don't really have an overarching theory. It's not really much more than a gut reaction when I hear the term 'populist'. Invariably those I first think of who would be described like that have demagogue tendencies and seek to subvert/change legal/electoral systems in order to channel more power to themselves through direct appeals to the people. That could be left or right - it would include figures like Hugo Chavez.

Well is pretty the classic anti-populist definition, one that makes populism basically a synonym of authoritarianism. The problem with it is that you do then have to follow Muller in defining The Populists as not populists. As well as excluding M5S, Syriza, Podemos, and Sanders and Corbyn.

 

[JTG]

Anyway:

• 82m people have voted so far
• 59.5% of the total 2016 turn out
• HI is at 105% of '16 turn out, TX 95%, WA 88%, MT 86% etc etc
• Given the above it seems reasonable that actual turn out is even higher as some states are v slow at reporting their numbers
• Harris County is in the midst of a 36 hour long continuous early voting spree that has taken it past '16's 1.3m voter turn out and which should see the Biden campaign gain a cushion of a few hundred thousand votes in the county
• Those polls still aint moving in any significant way and haven't done for weeks

 

[belboid]

• Those polls still aint moving in any significant way and haven't done for weeks

that's the really key bit. I'm still dubious about whether the pollsters have really been able to account for the mail in vote (which will definitely see significant numbers discounted) and the massively increased turnout. But the fact that the polls aint changed really for months means that shouldn't really matter. Hopefully.

 

[spitfire]

I've been seeing a lot of comments about Trump spending less on TV ads etc. Does anyone, (anywhere), know what they're spending on social media ads or is he just short of money full stop?

 

[JTG]

that's the really key bit. I'm still dubious about whether the pollsters have really been able to account for the mail in vote (which will definitely see significant numbers discounted) and the massively increased turnout. But the fact that the polls aint changed really for months means that shouldn't really matter. Hopefully.

Yeah innit. As with every election I think the pollsters will be fighting the last war ie fixing the problems from last time and discovering new ones. There are still 25m outstanding mail ballots as it stands but half of those are in California and can be returned in person on the day so shrug
Other factors at play are that district level polling suggests swings against the President are even larger than national polling implies. There are very few of the clues and red flags around that were glossed over somewhat in the dying days of the Clinton campaign

 

[JTG]

I've been seeing a lot of comments about Trump spending less on TV ads etc. Does anyone, (anywhere), know what they're spending on social media ads or is he just short of money full stop?

I've seen next to nothing about any of that surprisingly. The Trump campaign and associated PACs do appear to be much shorter on cash than their opponents

 

[StoneRoad]

US election 2020: The 750,000 people you didn’t know could vote - BBC News

Something I didn't realise - the differences between prison and jail; and the voting situation in those places.

 

[JTG]

...and Texas is over the top with 9m votes cast and one day left of early voting

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Good news, finally:

Hundreds of President Donald Trump's supporters were left in the freezing cold for hours after a rally at an airfield in Omaha, Nebraska, on Tuesday night, with some walking around 3 miles to waiting buses and others being taken away in ambulances.

Hundreds of Trump supporters stuck on freezing cold Omaha airfield after rally, 7 taken to hospitals

Overall, 30 people were "contacted" for medical reasons, the Omaha Police Department said in a statement.

news.yahoo.com

Some of these people are literally my neighbors. While I don't agree with their politics, I don't wish them any ill will. In fact, what I'd like to see them have well-paid jobs, universal healthcare, fully funded education for their children, and a comfortable retirement, even if they aren't willing to ask for it for themselves.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Some of these people are literally my neighbors. While I don't agree with their politics, I don't wish them any ill will. In fact, what I'd like to see them have well-paid jobs, universal healthcare, fully funded education for their children, and a comfortable retirement, even if they aren't willing to ask for it for themselves.

Personally, I do have ill will to people who act as cheerleaders for authoritarian rapist scum like Trump. I'm prepared to believe that in 2016 some of them were just deeply ignorant and utterly clueless about who Trump is and what he stands for. Not anymore.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Everyone who attends Trump's Nuremberg rallies are trash.