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US election 2020 thread

bimble said:
Basically, Qanon is very much like a religious movement (sense of community, good versus evil etc) than it is a bunch of theories / wacky ideas that people take on board for no reason. So I think it is silly to say they’re all stupid, unless you would happily also say the same of all religious people who engage in shared irrational beliefs for reasons that aren’t incomprehensible, they get something from their belonging to the community which believes these things.
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I don't have much of a problem with calling certain religious beliefs stupid. The belief that evolution does not happen is profoundly stupid, for instance.
 
bimble said:
Basically, Qanon is very much like a religious movement (sense of community, good versus evil etc) than it is a bunch of theories / wacky ideas that people take on board for no reason. So I think it is silly to say they’re all stupid, unless you would happily also say the same of all religious people who engage in shared irrational beliefs for reasons that aren’t incomprehensible, they get something from their belonging to the community which believes these things.
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The desire for a sense of belonging, and stupidity, are not mutually exclusive.

But it's nice of you to introduce a bizarre tangent into the debate and try and wring out my beliefs on religion.
 
bimble said:
Basically, Qanon is very much like a religious movement (sense of community, good versus evil etc) than it is a bunch of theories / wacky ideas that people take on board for no reason. So I think it is silly to say they’re all stupid, unless you would happily also say the same of all religious people who engage in shared irrational beliefs for reasons that aren’t incomprehensible, they get something from their belonging to the community which believes these things.
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Yeah, I think that element of finding people with similar beliefs in world where no one seems to really believe anything is understated.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
For an inherently freedom loving nation, they don't half have a lot of heavily armed quasi-military police forces kicking around don't they?
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And those quasi-military forces will be tolerated as long as they are not shooting at the lot with assault rifles in their wardrobes. The American model of freedom strikes me as a selective one, but is also shaped by each citizen's perspective and experience. I suspect that many of those US citizens who do not feel very free still aspire to an American ideal of freedom, just as many aspire to an American ideal of success.
 
planetgeli said:
The desire for a sense of belonging, and stupidity, are not mutually exclusive.

But it's nice of you to introduce a bizarre tangent into the debate and try and wring out my beliefs on religion.
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Oh dear. Never mind you asked what I meant when I said that thing in response to your post about all Q people being stupid, so I tried to explain that’s all. Not trying to wring anything out or do tangents or fighting.
 
8ball said:
We're talking about people being stupid rather than ideas being stupid here, though.
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Not sure the one judgement is needed when you have the other. A person close to me has fallen down the Qanon rabbit hole. The things they now believe are deeply, deeply stupid. Are they just stupid full stop? It's not a particularly meaningful question. It's certainly not a helpful question when trying to deal with someone with beliefs of that kind.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Not sure the one judgement is needed when you have the other. A person close to me has fallen down the Qanon rabbit hole. The things they now believe are deeply, deeply stupid. Are they just stupid full stop? It's not a particularly meaningful question. It's certainly not a helpful question when trying to deal with someone with beliefs of that kind.
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It's a helpful distinction when discussing ideas, stupid or otherwise.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Not sure the one judgement is needed when you have the other. A person close to me has fallen down the Qanon rabbit hole. The things they now believe are deeply, deeply stupid. Are they just stupid full stop? It's not a particularly meaningful question. It's certainly not a helpful question when trying to deal with someone with beliefs of that kind.
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Yeah, same here. A close friend of many years, someone I love and know to be a kind, thoughtful and intelligent person. It feels like she's been taken hostage.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Same here. Speaking to friends in the US who are worried that after Trump has gone, there will be "low intensity warfare" (armed insurgency) for years to come, & not just in the South, but the Rust Belt too.
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Yeah, it's hard to see where the loons go from here, but a legacy of heightened domestic terrorism feels all too likely.
 
killer b said:
Yeah, same here. A close friend of many years, someone I love and know to be a kind, thoughtful and intelligent person. It feels like she's been taken hostage.
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It's fucking horrible, and I just feel helpless tbh. With this person, this isn't their first set of delusional beliefs. I've never found an effective way to address it. You can't reason with it, that's for sure, because it isn't based on reason.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
It's fucking horrible, and I just feel helpless tbh. With this person, this isn't their first set of delusional beliefs. I've never found an effective way to address it. You can't reason with it, that's for sure, because it isn't based on reason.
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Even when you speak to someone with doubts and points where you can jemmy some logic in, they just go straight back to their canonical Youtube accounts and message boards.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Same here. Speaking to friends in the US who are worried that after Trump has gone, there will be "low intensity warfare" (armed insurgency) for years to come, & not just in the South, but the Rust Belt too.
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Yes.

I think it was likely before Wednesday’s bullshit. I think it’s highly probable now.


Also, the way this plays out around the will world is going to be very bad indeed.
The opportunity for propaganda and political leverage has shifted.

China is now crowing about how their rebels didn’t get anyone killed. And the protestors there are now even less safe and more likely to be arrested and disappeared than they were before Wednesday.

Shining city on the hill my arse. It’s burning and the acrid smoke will taint everything.
 
planetgeli said:
And it's obvious that the state will go heavily against anyone, Trump included, who was involved on Wednesday. I don't get people on here going on about getting upset with the liberal hand-wringing over an attack on the Capitol building. Of course the 'democratic' world was going to line up to attack what happened. It's the symbol of the essence of democracy. Their system. I've been outside the HoP more than once on demos having the conversation "How far do you think we'd get?". And lots of years in prison used to make our minds up for us.

It's not Biden coming down heavily. It's the state apparatus. It's how it works. They have a lot to defend.
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Do you really think there will be any meaningful action against trump personally, other than the theatre Pelosi is engaging in? Genuine question, as they say.
 
Wilf said:
Do you really think there will be any meaningful action against trump personally, other than the theatre Pelosi is engaging in? Genuine question, as they say.
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Before this week, my answer to that was a firm 'no'. Now I don't know. Think it's going to depend on how things pan out in the next few days and weeks. I take Trump's most recent video as the moment when he finally broke. Bit early to say what happens after that.
 
8ball said:
Even when you speak to someone with doubts and points where you can jemmy some logic in, they just go straight back to their canonical Youtube accounts and message boards.
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And worse, they might pretend to agree with you just to shut you up. Poor thing, he just doesn't get it.
 
bimble said:
Basically, Qanon is very much like a religious movement (sense of community, good versus evil etc) than it is a bunch of theories / wacky ideas that people take on board for no reason. So I think it is silly to say they’re all stupid, unless you would happily also say the same of all religious people who engage in shared irrational beliefs for reasons that aren’t incomprehensible, they get something from their belonging to the community which believes these things.
Click to expand...
It's not that much like organised religion, although it has some things in common.

Typical religious irrationalism can take easy refuge in the unprovable, in historic tradition, in the figurative rather than literal. This stuff can do a little bit of that but mostly relies on a lack of judgement and critical reasoning,as well as selective interpretation, so it's much easier to call this stupid. But stupid doesn't simply equal "I am intelligent and would not fall victim".

If you want to compare this to something I think you should be looking at cults, and within that there are better examples than major religions, because for the most part you can be religious without drinking the Kool Aid. Better to look at investment scams or something for a closer parallel.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Before this week, my answer to that was a firm 'no'. Now I don't know. Think it's going to depend on how things pan out in the next few days and weeks. I take Trump's most recent video as the moment when he finally broke. Bit early to say what happens after that.
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I reckon they feel that they have to be seen to do something, even if it’s only a token gensture.

Otherwise it’ll look like they’re willing to let it slide. They’ll need some kind of line in the sand to which they can refer later on
 
mauvais said:
It's not that much like organised religion, although it has some things in common.

Typical religious irrationalism can take easy refuge in the unprovable, in historic tradition, in the figurative rather than literal. This stuff can do a little bit of that but mostly relies on a lack of judgement and critical reasoning,as well as selective interpretation, so it's much easier to call this stupid. But stupid doesn't simply equal "I am intelligent and would not fall victim".

If you want to compare this to something I think you should be looking at cults, and within that there are better examples than major religions, because for the most part you can be religious without drinking the Kool Aid. Better to look at investment scams or something for a closer parallel.
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Investment scams like Ponzi scheme type things? I don’t think so. That might be useful when thinking about people who just fell for Donald trump as someone who would help them, but I don’t think Qanon is similar, people aren’t involved just because they got duped by shiny promises, they are getting something out of it. But all this is for another thread probably isn’t it.
 
Wilf said:
Do you really think there will be any meaningful action against trump personally, other than the theatre Pelosi is engaging in? Genuine question, as they say.
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Up until 48 hours ago, not a chance. But I think something is inevitable now, it's just a case of whether "they" make it a token slap on the wrist or go for something more substantial.
 
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