US election 2020 thread

[Kaka Tim]

Why haven’t I seen a tiresome Downfall meme yet?

After the last few weeks, Downfall is starting to look more like a parody of the fall of trump.

 

[ViolentPanda]

“Blue lives matter” .

Sicknick is a damn fine name for a rozzer!

 

[cupid_stunt]

It's a big mistake to conflate gullibility (lack of critical thinking skills) and stupidity. The two are unrelated. And the IQ profile for people who get roped into cults, etc., tends to be higher than that of the general population.

Seriously?

OK, I've only known a handful of people that have disappeared down various rabbit holes over the years, but none of them have been very bright TBH, and all were easily led.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Seriously?

OK, I've only known a handful of people that have disappeared down various rabbit holes over the years, but none of them have been very bright TBH, and all were easily led.

erstwhile urban poster Jazzz is an example. He believed a fearful mass of utter rubbish. He was also properly gifted at maths.

 

[BigMoaner]

About 40% of Americans believe in creationism / young earth theory. Thickos, that explains it.

Ok, you could explain it, roughly, as the desire or need to bring comfort in a senseless, confusing world. This need so strong that all evidence to the contrary is dismissed.

Now, as a secular person, I could do this with a partner - invest the whole meaning of life and self-comfort and security in one person, to see me through, to give me meaning.

I'd be understood - but i'd still would have been a bit daft to do that in the first place, no?

 

[weltweit]

I think Biden's top priority after inauguration will be the coronavirus. That isn't to say that USA can only do one thing at a time, but I think if they do go after Trump he won't to be their top priority.

 

[planetgeli]

I.Q.

O.k...

 

[two sheds]

erstwhile urban poster Jazzz is an example. He believed a fearful mass of utter rubbish. He was also properly gifted at maths.

For me it's the information people act on. They can be as intelligent as you like but if the information they're gathering and accepting is leading them into a rabbit hole then that's where they'll go.

 

[BigMoaner]

i get it, i am not arguing for less understanding of why people believe certain things. i think after reading people being called brainwashed sheep for wearing masks, or that Trump is assigned by God, the more surface language such as "stupid idiots" does come easier to the tongue. I get what you're saying, tho.

 

[petee]

Have we had this yet?

yes

 

[weltweit]

..
OK, I've only known a handful of people that have disappeared down various rabbit holes over the years, but none of them have been very bright TBH, and all were easily led.

I have known some that have been collected by cults, intelligent enough if a bit naive.

These days I know people who take as fact things they just found on facebook, intelligent enough if a bit naive.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I.Q.

O.k...

Indeed. But if you're going to call someone stupid, it's fair enough to ask what you mean by it.

Stupid argument anyway. Leaving it there.

 

[Treacle Toes]

On reflection, I think that I am coming round to the view that Trump himself is not a fascist because:

1. Trump isn't idealistic enough to be a fascist in that he is more a personality cult. Whilst such cultism often accompanies fascism, it is more a by-product than a defining feature.

I'd say personality and cultism is fundamental to fascism. Along with self obsession, opportunism and a lack of empathy. simplistic/populist slogans, exploiting the disenfranchised, polarising debate, encouraging division, scapegoating, hyper nationalist and ethnocentric; to cement and maintain power/relavance etc..all of these things are who Trump is and how he operates. He doesn't have to be an intellectual heavyweight, the role of advisors and strategists shouldn't be underestimated IMO.

2. He spends almost as much time undermining the traditional tools of fascism (the military, recently the right-wing traditional media) as doing the other stuff like clamping down on opposition.

He has a lot of support within the armed forces and the police. Couple that with the armed cult of citizens that support him...yes recently lots of the media have criticised him but they also helped create what we are seeing/him; the rise of social media makes the dynamic more complex, people have become their own 'media' so I think whilst it's helpful to understand the traditional tools of fascism there isn't a blue print overlay and we'd be naive to dismiss this evolution and be squeamish about calling it/him a fascist because he hasn't come dressed as the bogeyman in our heads.

3. Ultimately, the Americans' love of "Freedom" is so broadly accepted in all its forms that it doesn't give enough room for true fascism to truly take hold.

What is true fascism? We have archetypes and examples of fascists, but are those really so rigid?

The American right wing interpretation of freedom is about carrying your own military grade weapons, not being part of a larger corps acting under orders.

But that isn't what we've be seeing at all IMO, quite the opposite....they are 'following orders' and organising amongst themselves because they like the cut of his jib, have fallen for his rhetoric, respond to his dogwhistles, accept the ideological exploitation and manipulation of their sense of 'entitlement' and 'oppression'. It doesn't have to be armed, just absorbed as culture, perpetuated and become the hill people are willing to die on even just at debate level.

This third point is what will probably and ironically protect the US from true fascism, but it is also the factor that impedes progress in a more socialist direction.

Time will tell, it doesn't seem to be protecting the US at the moment albeit that this shit has yet to completely consume the majority.

 

[cupid_stunt]

erstwhile urban poster Jazzz is an example. He believed a fearful mass of utter rubbish. He was also properly gifted at maths.

That fact that he was gifted at maths and playing the piano, doesn't alter the fact that he was fucking stupid, and indeed dangerous, in many aspects of his life.

 

[8ball]

All of the above makes him a right-wing populist. Not a fascist.

Trump, not Jazzz.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That fact that he was gifted at maths and playing the piano, doesn't alter the fact that he was fucking stupid, and indeed dangerous, in many aspects of his life.

Yes, fair enough. As I said, I think it's a bit of a stupid argument ultimately.

 

[BigMoaner]

Yes, fair enough. As I said, I think it's a bit of a stupid argument ultimately.

and qanon isn't?

anyway, yes, best left.

 

[8ball]

Yes, fair enough. As I said, I think it's a bit of a stupid argument ultimately.

Unless you can deal with the fact that intelligent people can be sucked into these things, I think you're a bit hamstrung in dealing with them.

 

[Treacle Toes]

All of the above makes him a right-wing populist. Not a fascist.

Trump, not Jazzz.

What do you see the key differences to be?....do fascists not exploit the tools of populism? Is there only one route to fascism?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and qanon isn't?

anyway, yes, best left.

Ok one final point. Context also matters. Posting and advocating ideas that are dangerous or stupid (or both) on a public message board is a particular context, which can require particular robust responses.

 

[Yossarian]

What a load of shite that is, takes all the agency and puts in it the hands of the politicians only. Tabletmag usually a good read too.

The author also seems a long way wide of the mark when he blames the violence on the "rise of unmarried and childless young Americans in their 20s and 30s" and argues that having more babies is the answer - from the arrests, etc., an awful lot of people there seem to have been middle-aged small business owners, etc.

Some of the morons fired so far for sharing video of themselves at Capitol Hill - or wearing their employee badge to the riot, in the case of a marketing exec - include lawyers, real estate agents, and a former Republican lawmaker who became a college professor.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The author also seems a long way wide of the mark when he blames the violence on the "rise of unmarried and childless young Americans in their 20s and 30s" and argues that having more babies is the answer - from the arrests, etc., an awful lot of people there seem to have been middle-aged small business owners, etc.

Some of the morons fired so far for sharing video of themselves at Capitol Hill - or wearing their employee badge to the riot, in the case of a marketing exec - include lawyers, real estate agents, and a former Republican lawmaker who became a college professor.

Bit like the football hooligans at England away matches. Hedge fund managers and the like.

 

[mauvais]

I think a lot of the analysis, including that of some smart people, is going to be found lacking.

There's talk about how this outlives Trump and for sure the structural stuff does, Biden doesn't resolve a thing, but in many ways the populist movement that manifested in things like the riot not only required precisely Trump himself (the incoherence, malleability and underachievement of the man ironically all make him a great canvas for projection) but required that he was either in power or had the prospect of power. If something or someone directly replaces him then that can easily transfer, and that opportunity is ripe for the picking, but if not, noone wants to back the losing side and a lot of this tangible hobbyist Trumpian stuff not actually borne of classic inequity is just going to evaporate. Disenfranchisement is a good call to arms but it's also a demotivator, and they're going to get a big dose of it from this kicking. Populists but Americans in particular really need to be winning. Couple that with classic right wing internal retribution and recriminations and I think they're going to have a hard time.

It's taken ages to get to a point where Trump openly betrays the supporters as he did in that concession speech and delivers a kind of cognitive shock. It's still not enough but I don't think we're done with it yet - as he continues to sink he will continue to trash his own toxic legacy. That's what the political opposition should focus on.

I think America and American society is totally fucked, and will end in some Soviet Union collapse fashion in my lifetime, but I don't think these episodes bring us very much closer to understanding what that looks like.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bit like the football hooligans at England away matches. Hedge fund managers and the like.

Doing it because it makes them feel real/gives some meaning to otherwise barren lives.

 

[planetgeli]

I think a lot of the analysis, including that of some smart people, is going to be found lacking.

There's talk about how this outlives Trump and for sure the structural stuff does, Biden doesn't resolve a thing, but in many ways the populist movement that manifested in things like the riot not only required precisely Trump himself (the incoherence, malleability and underachievement of the man ironically all make him a great canvas for projection) but required that he was either in power or had the prospect of power. If something or someone directly replaces him then that can easily transfer, and that opportunity is ripe for the picking, but if not, noone wants to back the losing side and a lot of this tangible hobbyist Trumpian stuff not actually borne of classic inequity is just going to evaporate. Disenfranchisement is a good call to arms but it's also a demotivator, and they're going to get a big dose of it from this kicking. Populists but Americans in particular really need to be winning. Couple that with classic right wing internal retribution and recriminations and I think they're going to have a hard time.

Yes. This. Etc.

I'd have liked your post but I don't agree necessarily with the other paragraphs. But this is bang on.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I didn't hear a concession speech...I heard a call to keep their heads up despite the disappointment and the encouragement to stick with him because 'the journey has just begun.


His follow up tweet is also a peach.

'The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!! '

 

[BigMoaner]

I didn't hear a concession speech...I heard a call to keep their heads up despite the disappointment and the encouragement to stick with him because 'the journey has just begun.


His follow up tweet is also a peach.

'The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!! '

the man cannot help himself. he is one of the most ungraceful human beings i have ever known. Never, ever, wrong. Ever. Dangerous.

 

[8ball]

What do you see the key differences to be?....do fascists not exploit the tools of populism?

Fascists do ride in on a wave of populism, but so can others. There are also things about Trump where you can draw some parallels, but I think we are devaluing the term if we apply it whenever some element or other matches up.

Taking some of Trump's screwed up reign of mischief, there are some important distinctions that can be made:

There is no centrally-sustaining ideology with Trump. There was no assassination of political opponents. There was no idolisation of the nation state as the manifestation of virtue that the individual was redeemed by their complete submission to. There was no rounding up and murdering of minorities. There was no subsumption of capitalism by the State. There was no abjection of individuality in favour of the collective. There was, if anything, a reduction in Pax Americana's military aggression (militarism being a very central thread to fascism). Wages were not forcibly reduced in favour of rewarding workers with pride in the Nation. Dissembling, diversion and information warfare reigned, but there was no more in the way of naked power politics than is usual for the States. Masculinity and strength were not revered above all other ideals but the Nation. Very importantly (and this is something that Trump whined about continuously), the mass media was not under his rigid control.

And finally* (and this really stuck in his craw), elections were not faked.

* Not finally, really, there are posters on here who could come up with much more than me

 

[bimble]

Fascists do ride in on a wave of populism, but so can others. There are also things about Trump where you can draw some parallels, but I think we are devaluing the term if we apply it whenever some element or other matches up.

Taking some of Trump's screwed up reign of mischief, there are some important distinctions that can be made:

There is no centrally-sustaining ideology with Trump. There was no assassination of political opponents. There was no idolisation of the nation state as the manifestation of virtue that the individual was redeemed by their complete submission to. There was no rounding up and murdering of minorities. There was so subsumption of capitalism by the State. There was no abjection of individuality in favour of the collective. There was, if anything, a reduction in Pax Americana's military aggression (militarism being a very central thread to fascism). Wages were not forcibly reduced in favour of rewarding workers with pride in the Nation. Dissembling, diversion and information warfare reigned, but there was no more in the way of naked power politics than is usual for the States. Masculinity and strength were not revered above all other ideals but the Nation. Very importantly (and this is something that Trump whined about continuously, the mass media was not rigidly controlled.

And finally* (and this really stuck in his craw), elections were not faked.

* Not finally, really, there are posters on here who could come up with much more than me

Well, yeah but isn’t the trick to spot the fascist before all of those things happen not after?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think a lot of the analysis, including that of some smart people, is going to be found lacking.

There's talk about how this outlives Trump and for sure the structural stuff does, Biden doesn't resolve a thing, but in many ways the populist movement that manifested in things like the riot not only required precisely Trump himself (the incoherence, malleability and underachievement of the man ironically all make him a great canvas for projection) but required that he was either in power or had the prospect of power. If something or someone directly replaces him then that can easily transfer, and that opportunity is ripe for the picking, but if not, noone wants to back the losing side and a lot of this tangible hobbyist Trumpian stuff not actually borne of classic inequity is just going to evaporate. Disenfranchisement is a good call to arms but it's also a demotivator, and they're going to get a big dose of it from this kicking. Populists but Americans in particular really need to be winning. Couple that with classic right wing internal retribution and recriminations and I think they're going to have a hard time.

It's taken ages to get to a point where Trump openly betrays the supporters as he did in that concession speech and delivers a kind of cognitive shock. It's still not enough but I don't think we're done with it yet - as he continues to sink he will continue to trash his own toxic legacy. That's what the political opposition should focus on.

I think America and American society is totally fucked, and will end in some Soviet Union collapse fashion in my lifetime, but I don't think these episodes bring us very much closer to understanding what that looks like.

I'd hope for a Soviet Union-style collapse - that is, at least the 1st couple of years: Largely peaceful, although awesomely ridden with Robber Baronage.

I suspect that what the US will get, will be zones akin to those Snake Pliskin was sent into: Walled penal colonies, where the headline predator is ruler, plus incidental insurrection & Quantrill's Raiders-type guerrilla activity out in the wider country.