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US election 2020 thread

SheilaNaGig said:
No, you’ve read him right.

He’s really like that. It’s not rhetoric.

And he’s full of righteous indignation. This too is standard for Southerners, although it’s well hidden.

He’s a cheerful chummy friendly smiling polite family man. He is successful and arrogant in his success. He loathes anyone who is not his equal while smiling and smiling. One of the reasons people like him enjoy and adore the South is exactly because they have a resident underclass to despise and blame.

The South is very weird. Hospitality and Southern Charm (look it up*) are articles of faith, as in religion. Never ever be openly rude or unpleasant. And seethe with vile resentment beneath the surface.



*
Except you can’t really because the only returns for that search are for a successful tv show.
Click to expand...
tbh reading that and hearing that he's upset, my first reaction is 'Good'.
 
Pasted from elsewhere, this is an eloquent personal story that I keep reading versions of all over the place.
The cracks in America have had wedges driven into them :(

I spent years trying to reach my mother and father. I was still pretty young and financially insecure. I had nowhere else to go and I lived in their house. We had many problems that were non-political. There were many reasons I had not to trust my mother, who hurt me over and over. There were many reasons to fear my father, whose abuse I have never recovered from. But I believed that I was their son and if they loved me they would hear me. So I tried to relate, reach out, and have conversations with them all through 2015 and 2016. I thought some of these conversations went well. There were times where I felt like we were really understanding each other. There were times where I felt like I was speaking to my father as an equal and to my mother as a friend. While I never knew what was going to happen, there were a lot of times I had hope.

But it did not work. I did not reach them. All that happened was that I got them to play nice with me - an act they put on for my benefit. They loved their son, after all, so they humored me. They would talk to me about what I cared about, what mattered to me, and why I felt they were wrong, and then nod politely and carry on. Because they did not actually care what I had to say. They did not actually care what I believed. They did not care at all when I attempted to show them why what they believed was so dangerous and selfish and hurtful. Because to them, the world made perfect sense and they already know everything there is to know. I was the one who didn't get it. But they heard me out and pretended they cared because they knew they were already right, I was already wrong, and I didn't actually matter. We were playing pretend.

I had a lot at stake here. I had to either reach my mother and father or I had to leave. There was nothing I ever tried to do that I was more afraid of failing. But I could not reach them, so I left. I moved out shortly after the election. Nothing I ever said or did mattered. They watched me move out obliviously.

For the years that followed I did not speak to my father, but I occasionally spoke to my mother. I left the door open for a long time to reconcile if they ever came to their senses. If everything we talked about ever landed with them and if losing me as a result of their politics ever registered, I wanted to be there to pick up the pieces. There was no world where I preferred to not have a relationship with my parents. So I would see my mother monthly. I would wait to hear what she had to say, but I never led the witness. I wanted her to bring it up on her own. I wanted her to show me she knew why I was upset. But she didn't. As months became years she would beg me to tell her what was wrong and why I didn't talk to them anymore. She would make random guesses about arbitrary things (my father, for example, suspected I left the family because I broke his drill and was embarrassed about it). I died inside over and over as I sat across from my mother who cluelessly ignored everything I ever talked about as important to me.

I got married in 2019 and made one last attempt to reconcile before the wedding. I went back to the house for the first time in three years. I spoke to my father for the first time since then. We sat at the table and we started to talk. When I finally broached the subject of their politics, they were aghast and appalled. That was the reason I no longer spoke to them? All this time just was "just politics"? They laid into me like a petulant child. They mocked and antagonized me for letting something superfluous come between us. They accused me of deception and manipulation and still not "getting it". It was a proper family meltdown. My father did not attend my wedding and my mother just sat there silently. We have not spoken a word to one another since. They labeled me a radical, smeared me to my extended family, and I lost everyone. It is over. I have no family. I have my partner, and I have their sibling, but they are orphans. We have nobody left in this world but each other. It is a lonely world.

I did everything I could to prevent this from happening. I started early, I met them on their level, I asked them questions and heard their stories and tried to meet them half way on issues. I made an honest and earnest attempt to bring my parents out of their world and into another. It didn't even have to be mine, it just had to be better. Something safer. Something that didn't hurt people and threaten the livelihood of others. It did not get better though, it only got worse. My mother is a Qanon anti-vaxxer with a Parler account. My father is a virulently angry dictator worshipper who wants to violently establish a new world order. They are waiting for me to someday come apologize to them.


I don't believe you can reach these people anymore. Their worldview does not allow it. It is not a worldview of confusion or misunderstanding, it's rooted in absolute certainty. You cannot teach something to someone who is this closed off to information and so strongly opposed to your input. It is just not possible. To convince someone of something they need to be capable of doubt. They have to be open to the possibility, however small, that they are incorrect about something. But these people are not these things. So you can waste all the energy you want trying to connect with them and find a middle ground, but all you're doing is helping them advance themselves and hurt more people.

The only thing that changes the mind of someone like this is epiphany. There needs to be a moment where their system fails. There needs to be a sudden awakening of consciousness where they witness something or experience something that changes how they feel about something. Then they are open. Then they can be reached. But until then, that wall is impenetrable. I do not believe you can force that epiphany. If it can be done, I never figured it out. I tried so hard to. I lived the experience. Every day for years I tried to no avail. It is the hardest I ever tried at anything.

And I know I am not alone. It isn't 2015. It's 2021. We've been living alongside and contending with these people - neighbors, coworkers, family members - for half a decade. People have been trying and failing to reach and deradicalize people this entire time and more people voted for Trump in 2020 than they did in 2016. Accept that you're being played and stop giving so much energy to people who hate you. I tried, I was beaten, and I have lost my will. So if you want to keep trying, power to you. But don't act like you care about me when you choose to care about them. You can't do both.

I am always open to helping someone who is open to being helped. It is never too late for someone to turn it around. But you can't make them do it and I certainly don't think you should pity them if they don't. I don't expend my limited energy on compassion for them anymore. There are other people, namely their victims and the people they marginalize, who deserve my whole heart instead.
Click to expand...
 
littlebabyjesus said:
This isn't about Trump, then, really? On the one hand, they're sane and normal, but on the other hand, they are racists with extreme views that they don't even realise are extreme because they're normalised by their surroundings. I lived in the South in the US a long time ago - nearly 30 years ago - and one of the first things that struck me (shocked me tbh) was how widespread and normalised racism was among white people there, among otherwise 'normal' people, and also how that racism was infused with levels of both fear and hatred. It sounds like perhaps things haven't changed too much.
Click to expand...


We’ll it is about Trump insofar as his brazenness has emboldened them.

No one else has had the balls to speak like he does and then double down on it. (I was at a wedding and after the ceremony the groomsmen decided to go to a “titty bar” rather than the reception. No one was surprised, no one was shocked. The groom was invited but declined. “Grab her by the pussy” is not a big deal for them).

I’ve said many times on here about the deep racism in the South. As you discovered, it’s shocking. Some of the things I’ve witnessed fill me with disgust and shame, because I didn’t and couldn’t make it stop.

They’re sane and normal in the sense that they hold down jobs, raise families, go to church, finish school, drink and smoke pot no more than is sensible, give to charity, help out, pick up trash, stick to the speed limit, don’t break the law... yaddah yaddah.

Their views are extreme to us, but perfectly normal and pretty mainstream for them. And yes, they realise their racism isn’t acceptable but they say terrible things like “You people don’t understand, your Blacks are different to ours”. So it’s us who are against common sense.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
No, you’ve read him right.

He’s really like that. It’s not rhetoric.

And he’s full of righteous indignation. This too is standard for Southerners, although it’s well hidden.

He’s a cheerful chummy friendly smiling polite family man. He is successful and arrogant in his success. He loathes anyone who is not his equal while smiling and smiling. One of the reasons people like him enjoy and adore the South is exactly because they have a resident underclass to despise and blame.

The South is very weird. Hospitality and Southern Charm (look it up*) are articles of faith, as in religion. Never ever be openly rude or unpleasant. And seethe with vile resentment beneath the surface.



*
Except you can’t really because the only returns for that search are for a successful tv show.
Click to expand...

Reading the pieces you quoted reminded me of the below movie about social media “The Social Dilemma”. The gist was that because of the way Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Instagram, etc use algorithms to promote content “of interest“ to users, people are seeing only content which reinforces their prejudices and so are becoming so polarised in their opinions that otherwise normal, mainstream folks are splitting into opposite groups who each think the opinions the others hold make them “crazy”. I reality it’s simply that people are split into groups immersed in such different information environments that they understandably adopt more and more extreme views and are less able to accept or understand the other side of the debate.

The film’s premise was that this is all increasingly threatening the functioning of democracy, and it’s hard not to see yesterday as an example of that.

www.netflix.com

Watch The Social Dilemma | Netflix Official Site

This documentary-drama hybrid explores the dangerous human impact of social networking, with tech experts sounding the alarm on their own creations.
www.netflix.com www.netflix.com
 
littlebabyjesus said:
tbh reading that and hearing that he's upset, my first reaction is 'Good'.
Click to expand...


I detest him.

I’ve had many arguments with him. He wanted to defriend me on Facebook but I suggested he just silence me. I want to to know what he’s saying, exactly because he’s so normal.

My redneck cousins are totally comic book, I’m not quoting them because it’s so predictable, to the point of charicature.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
Their views are extreme to us, but perfectly normal and pretty mainstream for them. And yes, they realise their racism isn’t acceptable but they say terrible things like “You people don’t understand, your Blacks are different to ours”. So it’s us who are against common sense.
Click to expand...
yeah, I heard a lot of that kind of thing. I worked for a white bloke from South Carolina who was liberal in his use of the n word. He also employed a black Jamaican. He wasn't a n******, apparently.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
No, you’ve read him right.

He’s really like that. It’s not rhetoric.

And he’s full of righteous indignation. This too is standard for Southerners, although it’s well hidden.

He’s a cheerful chummy friendly smiling polite family man. He is successful and arrogant in his success. He loathes anyone who is not his equal while smiling and smiling. One of the reasons people like him enjoy and adore the South is exactly because they have a resident underclass to despise and blame.

The South is very weird. Hospitality and Southern Charm (look it up*) are articles of faith, as in religion. Never ever be openly rude or unpleasant. And seethe with vile resentment beneath the surface.



*
Except you can’t really because the only returns for that search are for a successful tv show.
Click to expand...

:(
Have been to Atlanta a couple of times on business and had a fortnight’s holiday in
Savannah/Charleston/St. Simons Island. Clocked the politeness of course but not the underlying resentment.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Among the thousand or so ironies in all this, he's now acting the anarchist role.
Click to expand...
Blimey, with everything else going on I'd totally missed the stuff about Trump starting a Covid mutual aid group in Mar-A-Lago and helping to unionise Trump Towers. Unless you've got "anarchist" and "absolutely nothing to do with anarchism" mixed up somehow?
brogdale said:
Mornington Crescent!
Click to expand...
I was wondering if Dark Knight takes requests, it might be nice and nostalgic to see some of Millbank getting smashed up.
a_chap said:
It's good to see that Republican politicians now realise just how dangerous spreading lies and conspiracy nonsense is.
Click to expand...

Arrested Development narrator voice: evidence did not follow
 
MrCurry said:
Reading the pieces you quoted reminded me of the below movie about social media “The Social Dilemma”. The gist was that because of the way Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Instagram, etc use algorithms to promote content “of interest“ to users, people are seeing only content which reinforces their prejudices and so are becoming so polarised in their opinions that otherwise normal, mainstream folks are splitting into opposite groups who each think the opinions the others hold make them “crazy”. I reality it’s simply that people are split into groups immersed in such different information environments that they understandably adopt more and more extreme views and are less able to accept or understand the other side of the debate.

The film’s premise was that this is all increasingly threatening the functioning of democracy, and it’s hard not to see yesterday as an example of that.

www.netflix.com

Watch The Social Dilemma | Netflix Official Site

This documentary-drama hybrid explores the dangerous human impact of social networking, with tech experts sounding the alarm on their own creations.
www.netflix.com www.netflix.com
Click to expand...


I’ve seen the film. It’s very interesting and instructive.


But you’re still not getting it.

My stepbrother has always felt this way. This is not new. He’s not been co-opted.

This is the guy who, in 1994 when the laws around assault weapons were changed, went out to buy one in order to exercise his rights. My father conviscated it from him because he was concerned that it was a disaster waiting to happen (three young children in the house).


He asked me about the NHS and got so angry with me about healthcare free at the point of use that he did the Southern version of not talking to me for the rest of the day.


ETA
I’m talking about one person here, my stepbrother. But it also applies to many people I know, and not just the charicature cousins.
 
Last edited:
SheilaNaGig said:
No one has silenced them.
Which is exaclty why I am very familiar with their views over many years.

I said “speak openly”.

Less euphamisticslly. Less guardedly. With less circumspection.

They know their racism etc is unacceptable outside their own circles and before trump they’d use all manner of veils and widely accepted tropes and other diguises.


I could give many many examples of times when that veil has slipped and they’ve exposed themselves vividly and sometimes shockingly. And plenty of examples of shit they don’t even realise is far right by my standards.

They’re far from silent, and have not been silenced.

I mean that they’ve been keeping their head down and seething about it.

Now they feel able to drop false modesty.

Since the first Trump election, they’ve been far far more openly vocal with their politics.

I’m not talking about the obvious outright villainous right wingers. I’m talking about the sane normal ordinary Republicans in the South
Click to expand...

I am listening...

On the 'speak openly' front...

They've won 24 out of 42 presidential elections since 1856 ( according to a wiki)

8 since 1964, out of 15.

I think we have to also consider local elections of particular states here just like we would boroughs in London/regions in the UK... For example what is the local landscape for your family where they live? How have the Republicans faired? What 'culture' exists? What are the trends etc.

You are of course right that these views are far from new.
 


Here we are now.... :D Just for reference, that little protest was on the eve of the then Irish Taoiseach signing up to the disasterous bailout programme.
 
Crispy said:
Pasted from elsewhere, this is an eloquent personal story that I keep reading versions of all over the place.
The cracks in America have had wedges driven into them :(
Click to expand...
this paragraph in particular I've come to realise is pretty important (can be applied to arguing with antivax & covid deniers on facebook too) - you'll never change their mind, and you're actually giving them a platform.

I don't believe you can reach these people anymore. Their worldview does not allow it. It is not a worldview of confusion or misunderstanding, it's rooted in absolute certainty. You cannot teach something to someone who is this closed off to information and so strongly opposed to your input. It is just not possible. To convince someone of something they need to be capable of doubt. They have to be open to the possibility, however small, that they are incorrect about something. But these people are not these things. So you can waste all the energy you want trying to connect with them and find a middle ground, but all you're doing is helping them advance themselves and hurt more people.
 
hitmouse said:
Blimey, with everything else going on I'd totally missed the stuff about Trump starting a Covid mutual aid group in Mar-A-Lago and helping to unionise Trump Towers. Unless you've got "anarchist" and "absolutely nothing to do with anarchism" mixed up somehow?
Click to expand...
I was thinking more of Pisacane 'propaganda of the deed'.
 
Winot said:
:(
Have been to Atlanta a couple of times on business and had a fortnight’s holiday in
Savannah/Charleston/St. Simons Island. Clocked the politeness of course but not the underlying resentment.
Click to expand...


If you’re visiting you’re sacred. You’re protected from what’s beneath it by virtue of the fact that the hospitality is for and about visitors.

Southern Gothic is a thing for a reason.
 
splonkydoo said:


Here we are now.... :D Just for reference, that little protest was on the eve of the then Irish Taoiseach signing up to the disasterous bailout programme.
Click to expand...


seriously its not fucking nazis storming the Dail is it

the biggest disappointment with yesterday shite show is that american cops can show restraint but only when dealing with the Fash

but we all knew that it just confirmed everyone suspicions
 
tendril said:
So there is some talk of the 25th. I have a couple of questions...

If trump is removed by 25 will it prevent him running again in 2024.

Is there any legal mechanism to prevent his children running in 2024? Because if one of them does run, and win, you just know it will be Trump snr actually running things.
Click to expand...

The text of the 25th amendment is in the wiki article below in the "approved text" bit (relevent bit is section 4 of the article -sorry not easy to copy and paste on my phone). I'm no lawyer but it doesn't look to me that it would prevent him running in 2024 if he decided to run.

Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org simple.wikipedia.org
 
Winot said:
:(
Have been to Atlanta a couple of times on business and had a fortnight’s holiday in
Savannah/Charleston/St. Simons Island. Clocked the politeness of course but not the underlying resentment.
Click to expand...


Atlanta is a running sore for Southerners.

Because of what happened in July 1864, and because they've never regained it.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
yeah, I heard a lot of that kind of thing. I worked for a white bloke from South Carolina who was liberal in his use of the n word. He also employed a black Jamaican. He wasn't a n******, apparently.
Click to expand...


Yup.

It’s makes sense to them.



It’s miserable. I hate it.

I’m not going to write up my examples because it serves no purpose
 
Just seen a video of and by the 35 year old woman who was shot yesterday when climbing into the capitol building, the Air Force woman who died yesterday eve. In the video she’s ranting furiously to camera whilst driving her car fast, she’s screaming about the useless democrats, how she can’t take any more of their shit etc. Felt weird to watch. She wasn’t there by accident / swept up in the moment, she’d been furious for a long time.
 
Among the various individuals, insignia, symbols, and groups identified in the game of spot the shithead is this

k4SuKGZ.png


Then there's this lot who have now been 'fingered' online
TKzSpYc.png


Left to right in the top left picture: Vincent James Foxx of The Red Elephants channel (banned from YouTube now on Bitchute), Nick Fuentes of the America First podcast and leader of the 'groypers' (live streamed from Pelosi's office) and Jayden McNeil of America First Students. Love the branded gesturing. Not sure it will catch on though.

Other attendance lists:
Hate symbols and extremist groups at the US Capitol siege - Business Insider
The extremists and hate groups that invaded the Capitol – The Forward
Capitol riots: Who broke into the building? - BBC News
 
bimble said:
Just seen a video of and by the 35 year old woman who was shot yesterday when climbing into the capitol building, the Air Force woman who died yesterday eve. In the video she’s ranting furiously to camera whilst driving her car fast, she’s screaming about the useless democrats, how she can’t take any more of their shit etc. Felt weird to watch. She wasn’t there by accident / swept up in the moment, she’d been furious for a long time.
Click to expand...

she was shot inside the capitol building and was attempting to jump over a inner barricade to the house chamber

its a important thing to remember whilst the right try to paint her as patriot and a peaceful protest martyr

seriously weird year but if it was any other type of protesters they would of dies on the steps not in the building

the american system is so broken
 
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