Urban v's the Commentariat

[ska invita]

That is not quite right, the poorest cannot emigrate as they would struggle to pay for the air fare and the initial costs (rent and food money while you look for a job) involved in starting a new life in a different country. Those who don't emigrate are either at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder and cannot afford to emigrate or are comfortable and rich enough that they don't need to. It is usually those who work and earn enough to get by but don't earn enough to fulfil their ambitions in life who emigrate.

I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to, I'd need to save a few grand for that and that is money I literally don't have at the moment.

go to victoria coach station, see people pull up off an international bus, get off the bus....and then sleep around victoria in the parks...when you're desperate you try all kinds. Sometimes one person goes ahead, gets a little set up and calls back to friends/family once they know theres a job there. People recruit internationally. All kinds of things go down. People who reached the jungle in calais have trod across continents with some meager money. or on another level young people from spain - far from rich, but still travel to cities beyond spain for any shit job. Share rooms etc.

You dont need much money to make the journey, but the hardship comes when you get there. Like i said in a post above, id love to see stats, as my experience tells me more poorer people emigrate than richer. when you've got wealth you can put down roots and settle ..more holidays, second homes, but emigrating isn't particularly necessary.

im not sure what you mean by "fulfilling life ambitions" as a motive. So many people in my family - young and old - have emigrated at different times...people move to make a little money, send it home, eek out a life. Going to do (shit) jobs in other countries is no life ambition.

 

[mojo pixy]

I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to,

If you didn't mind waiting for days freezing in a car park, rattling around in the pitch dark back of a truck, getting out by the side of some random road where you don't speak the language and most people hate you on sight, and you had to beg or steal to eat because nobody would give you a job and the people who brought you stole all your money .. you could afford to move overseas.

 

[cantsin]

This isn't what I thought I remembered though it has a similar line of argument, I suspect it's what dialectician is referring to The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason

nothing wrong with that piece imo

 

[redsquirrel]

the persecution of Romany people is racism...deeply embedded racism.

Yes, precisely.

What point exactly are you making about "freedom of movement"?

Your post sounded to me like it was suggesting poorer people can't move as much, hence my response that its the poorest that usually try their luck with emigration much more than wealthier people.

No my point is extremely simple, so simply in fact that I find it amazing that anyone who considers themselves a social democrat let alone a socialist and/or communist could not get it.

Under capitalism the "freedoms" people have are inseparable from their material conditions, despite what liberals would like to believe. Individuals do not all have the same "freedom of movement" anymore than they have the same "freedom of speech", those "freedoms" depend on their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and class. Seriously this is basic stuff, social democracy 101, the fact that some progressives find it hard to grasp, or even outright reject it, perfectly illustrates the point I was making.

 

[butchersapron]

And then we have the fact that the EU is using eastern europe as an ultra low wage platform whilst simultaneously subsiding capital to do so and attacking the social and welfare structures that might soften the blows for its victims - effectively leaving many workers no option but to be forced out to higher wage economies to support their families and dependents, thereby bringing down the wages there closer to the one they were forced to flee from. That's what free movement means to the EU - free movement meaning the same as free labour - i.e the dull compulsion of economic relations presented as choice.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yep, was going to get onto that next.

It's crazy for us as social democrats/socialist/communists to accept the crap the the neo-liberal EU is pushing as freedom. We need to make our own "freedoms" (though not very keen on that terminology really).

 

[Brainaddict]

Individuals do not all have the same "freedom of movement" anymore than they have the same "freedom of speech", those "freedoms" depend on their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and class.

But adding nationality to the things that inhibit their freedoms does not, it seems to me, have any positive effect on the constraints imposed by race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and class. Does it? Why cheerlead for a restriction on freedom that adds to other restrictions on freedoms? Unless you can argue that it would somehow bring jobs and self-determination (and other Good Things) to Bulgarians. But I don't see how closing the borders would even lead towards that. Turkish people can't move freely around the EU but they're still screwed by the current political settlement.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you know what this repeated refusal to see things the right way up reminds me of? When you explain what the structural and political problems with the EU are in the run up to the referendum - sometimes with especial attention to the murderous fortress europe plans and the response comes oh so you, want to kick out all the foreigners then? Here, twice now explaining what freedom of movement means within the context of those plans and problems becomes oh so you want to construct more borders to keep foreigners out then? No reflection on the questions posed about the very idea of 'freedoms' - esp under specific material conditions, no critical inquiry as to what - and importantly when it's these people, whose - freedoms are being upheld or used to hide what these freedoms represent for others. No attempt to unpack the term.

Explaining the problems or reality of something becomes an endorsement of an evil opposite - and there is no way on earth these people would accept that sort of logic being applied to them or their arguments. Oppose AV oh so you you're voting with the BNP now then?

The erasmus/weekend in barca propaganda is deep deep for these people.

 

[Brainaddict]

Do you know what this repeated refusal to see things the right way up reminds me of? When you explain what the structural and political problems with the EU are in the run up to the referendum - sometimes with especial attention to the murderous fortress europe plans and the response comes oh so you, want to kick out all the foreigners then? Here, twice now explaining what freedom of movement means within the context of those plans and problems becomes oh so you want to construct more borders to keep foreigners out then? No reflection on the questions posed about the very idea of 'freedoms' - esp under specific material conditions, no critical inquiry as to what - and importantly when it's these people, whose - freedoms are being upheld or used to hide what these freedoms represent for others. No attempt to unpack the term.

Explaining the problems or reality of something becomes an endorsement of an evil opposite - and there is no way on earth these people would accept that sort of logic being applied to them or their arguments. Oppose AV oh so you you're voting with the BNP now then?

The erasmus/weekend in barca propaganda is deep deep for these people.

I could equally say that you've refused to accept that millions of working class people feel they are better off for the freedom of movement. Your looking down at the structures from your lofty position of one of the wealthiest countries in Europe presumably wouldn't go down well with most of them. Tell those migrants they're wrong, not me, but maybe you'll have the decency to explain to them how the rejection of the EU as a package will result in better conditions for them that will ameliorate the loss of this particular (relative) freedom. I don't think that argument is made, and it isn't primarily to me that the argument needs to be made, but if you think you've made it at all you've done so very poorly so far. As for this gap-year Erasmus bullshit, and with this idea that mostly richer Eastern Europeans come here - it's so dishonest, you must know it's bullshit. Have a look at the average wage of migrants from A8 and A2 (newer EU) countries here and tell me it's Erasmus students: Characteristics and Outcomes of Migrants in the UK Labour Market - Migration Observatory

It's not about refusing to acknowledge all the other constraints people have on them, their material conditions and so on. It's about giving some sort of priority to people's lived experience at the same time as trying to deal with the oppressive structures of the 'free market'. We don't have to go with just one or the other.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh jesus - and again:

Tell those migrants they're wrong

So focused in are you on the seemingly self-evident truth that anyone critically interrogating the reality of what freedom of movement is and does and is designed to provide cover for must be supportive of measures that you don't support. You're simply making a series of assumptions about a whole range of people here not one of who has supported your ridiculous repeated characterisations of them as calling for more borders.

I take it when you attempt to accurately describe how in your view something bad works you aren't endorsing all other alternatives to what you're describing? Because that would be black and white and silly wouldn't it? Maybe you could try and allow the same sort of thing to others?

 

[emanymton]

I could equally say that you've refused to accept that millions of working class people feel they are better off for the freedom of movement. Your looking down at the structures from your lofty position of one of the wealthiest countries in Europe presumably wouldn't go down well with most of them. Tell those migrants they're wrong, not me, but maybe you'll have the decency to explain to them how the rejection of the EU as a package will result in better conditions for them that will ameliorate the loss of this particular (relative) freedom. I don't think that argument is made, and it isn't primarily to me that the argument needs to be made, but if you think you've made it at all you've done so very poorly so far. As for this gap-year Erasmus bullshit, and with this idea that mostly richer Eastern Europeans come here - it's so dishonest, you must know it's bullshit. Have a look at the average wage of migrants from A8 and A2 (newer EU) countries here and tell me it's Erasmus students: Characteristics and Outcomes of Migrants in the UK Labour Market - Migration Observatory

It's not about refusing to acknowledge all the other constraints people have on them, their material conditions and so on. It's about giving some sort of priority to people's lived experience at the same time as trying to deal with the oppressive structures of the 'free market'. We don't have to go with just one or the other.

A few years ago there was a big movement of Polish workers to the UK. Do you think most of them wanted to completely uproot their lives and move thousands of miles away from their families? Or do you think that for many of them it was economic factors that pushed them to move? Whose interest did their movement serve? Was it theirs, or would they have been better of with a higher earning job in Poland?

 

[hot air baboon]

Why is the NS generally and Lewis in particular so obsessed with trans people?

she's in the Times yesterday

A man can’t just say he has turned into a woman


It’s hard not to see Justine Greening’s proposal for “self-identification” of gender as a few rainbow sprinkles from a government that is struggling to pass any substantial legislation. I’m not even sure that some of the politicians involved understand what they are proposing.

 

[danny la rouge]

And then we have the fact that the EU is using eastern europe as an ultra low wage platform whilst simultaneously subsiding capital to do so and attacking the social and welfare structures that might soften the blows for its victims - effectively leaving many workers no option but to be forced out to higher wage economies to support their families and dependents, thereby bringing down the wages there closer to the one they were forced to flee from. That's what free movement means to the EU - free movement meaning the same as free labour - i.e the dull compulsion of economic relations presented as choice.

Yup, there was an article I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that was pointing out to social democrats/liberals who support certain EU conditions, such as freedom of movement, that far from being about rights for workers, these are about factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

Now, that isn't to say that for individuals, being able to move to get a job somewhere else isn't useful in real terms here and now. (And indeed my union supported Remain on just that point). But the point is that the conditions compelling that person to seek employment elsewhere is a side of the account that is ignored by the social democrat/liberal EU supporters.

 

[butchersapron]

Yup, there was an article I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that was pointing out to social democrats/liberals who support certain EU conditions, such as freedom of movement, that far from being about rights for workers, these are about factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

Now, that isn't to say that for individuals, being able to move to get a job somewhere else isn't useful in real terms here and now. (And indeed my union supported Remain on just that point). But the point is that the conditions compelling that person to seek employment elsewhere is a side of the account that is ignored by the social democrat/liberal EU supporters.

Blimey - someone got it and managed to put the thing on it's proper footing! Without saying that this understanding is a plea for more borders and a moral condemnation of immigration.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Owen Jones is getting a phone-in talk show on LBC (covering for Maajid Nawaz over the Summer hols)

 

[DaveCinzano]

We'ev ,the openly Nazi hacker who Laurie thought was a hero but didn't know he was a nazi has been quite busy.
Hacker Claims Credit for Anti-Semitic Flyer Sent to College Campuses » ADL Blogs

He's up to all sorts of new japes these days:

“Weev”, the system administrator for The Daily Stormer is planning on sending Nazis to #HeatherHeyer funeral. #Charlottesville,” Loomer wrote.

Her tweet included a screen shot of a post by “Weev” asking for “e-sleuths” to track down the funeral location.

“Yo, I need some research done,” Weev wrote. “What’s the location of this fat skank’s funeral.”

“Get on it, e-sleuths,” he added. “I want to get people on the ground there.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/dai...cist-in-charlottesville/#.WZME_YXbffA.twitter

 

[The39thStep]

He's up to all sorts of new japes these days:



http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/dai...cist-in-charlottesville/#.WZME_YXbffA.twitter

He's a shitbag isn't he?

 

[DaveCinzano]

He's a shitbag isn't he?

BUT HE SEEMED SO SWEET AND QUIRKY, YEAH???

 

[Bakunin]

'Weev' might have a small tech issue at the moment, what with the Daily Stormer being taken offline.

 

[DaveCinzano]

'Weev' might have a small tech issue at the moment, what with the Daily Stormer being taken offline.

.ru

 

[BigTom]

BUT HE SEEMED SO SWEET AND QUIRKY, YEAH???

is Weev the one laurie penny was matey with and said he was trolling with all his right wing stuff? Am I thinking of someone else?

 

[DaveCinzano]

is Weev the one laurie penny was matey with and said he was trolling with all his right wing stuff? Am I thinking of someone else?

That's the one, yes.

 

[rekil]

One development since then is that all the private school twitter tankies who attacked Laurie Penny and Molly Crabapple over this are 100% with him when it comes to Syria.

“Syria, even right now, is more free by orders of magnitude than the United States,” he says. “I think [Syrian president Bashar al] Assad fucked up. He should have gone full Hafez [al Assad, former president and Bashar’s father] on the bedouin at the start and none of this would ever have happened."

Claims about the current liberties to be enjoyed in Syria are difficult to verify because so many of the country's bloggers and free speech activists are being extrajudicially and indefinitely incarcerated by the government. Weev repeatedly uses the jingoistic term "bedouins" to characterize the opposition to Assad's rule.

 

[J Ed]

FUCK YOU.

 

[killer b]

What does she say in the article? Headers and subheaders are written by subs, they often bear only a passing resemblance to the thrust of the piece itself.

 

[butchersapron]

That's precisely the giggly amn't i naughty everyone headline and subheader she would write or ask people to write though.

 

[J Ed]

What does she say in the article? Headers and subheaders are written by subs, they often bear only a passing resemblance to the thrust of the piece itself.

Don't know, it's paywalled. Typical sort of Lewis stance though, and I can well imagine someone in her sort of position arguing it.

 

[killer b]

probably best not to argue against imagined stances though eh?

 

[J Ed]

Also while we are on the topic of Lewis, current NS cover....

 

[J Ed]

Trump is a populist, just like Corbyn, Brexit is bad and problematic fave George Osborne is good. Enlightened thinking in dark times.