FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Well now let's be fair. They're fine with Proper Transexuals. It's those Transgenders who are a problem.
Urban v's the Commentariat
- Thread starter Belushi
- Start date
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Honestly I don't understand the ins and outs of trans related issues, I probably should. I've just picked up on how so many of these neoliberal feminists, coincidentally almost always those who attack the Labour leadership from the right through publications like the New Statesman or groupings like Progress, seem to be absolutely obsessed with pushing back against social advances in this area.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Sorry, I was being a bit sarcastic there - I think it's absolutely typical liberal behaviour to say "well of course we support the basic idea of X but there are good X and bad X who take it too far" and those are the same people who'd be soft left at the same time. (Spectator column in a decade of course.)
The Pale King
Well-Known Member
Yeah the fixation is clearly disproportionate to the case - they talk about bathroom access issues more than U.S Republicans.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Mason and his politics are shit for a whole host of reasons but racism isn't one of them for Christ's sake. Just shows you how far gone and crazy some on the left have become where unless you're 100% in favour of open borders you're racist, no better than the BNP.It really is like some on the left want to live up to the loony left stereotype that those on the right cast them as and shows how toxic the influence of identity politics really is.
I dunno man last year he said something to the effect that coloured people are racially conscious and that gives them an advantage over white w/c and marginalised, which just reads like the white mans identity politics to me (no better than the coloured bourgeois radicals, and in the rights hands utterly reactionary.)
Like I've had it better than most but being racially conscious isn't (and I'd probably be reprimanded for saying this) something I take pride in, it's fucking shit to be honest. always second guessing.
But then again disability complicates my attitudes towards race which has always been a lacuna in more traditional antiracist circles where there might be more cultural pride.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Did he? I bet he didn't.
lazythursday
Well-Known Member
I vaguely remember this and I think he was making the point that the continuing experience of racism had galvanised community-based BME groups and had helped them to achieve things through collective action, whereas many marginalised white working class communities had lost those collective bonds, especially through the decline of traditional industries and the labour movement. It was just a bit of historical analysis, not an argument for identity politics moving forward.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I need to see it. And i reckon the accusation is simply on the 'free movement' lie.
lazythursday
Well-Known Member
This isn't what I thought I remembered though it has a similar line of argument, I suspect it's what dialectician is referring to The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
I'm totally clocking where this is going...
The problem for poor, white kids is that a part of their culture has been destroyed | Paul Mason
I still wouldn't call him a racist though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ta - that's def not where the racist accusations are coming from thought is it?
Mason is out of control. He's literally taking a bite of this a bite of that, ooh novara puff me up and i'll do you. It's squalid.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I susspose i'll stab corbyn in the back, but if you stab corbyn in the back the chance for post-capitalism will pass you by.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
captainmission
Well-Known Member
can anyone actually give any pointers on this one ? ( have googled)
A friend sent me this recently on Mason's supposed racism - Roundtable on Social Democracy, Borders, and Novara Media
It seems to come down to the fact Mason implied that migration can have an impact on wages- which is definitely racist, and it doesn't. Apart from when it does, but that's only short term and shut you up you monster!
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Classic vampire castling
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Jesus that's fucking crap from start to finish. But just one point I want to pick up on
That freedom of movement under capitalism is a fucking fiction!ANGELA MITROPOULOS said:
To talk as if I have the same freedom to immigrate within the EU as someone who's been working a sub-minimum wage job for the last few years or as someone of Romany heritage is frankly disgusting.
Really I can't believe that this has so be said to anyone even slightly left of centre. I mean once upon a time even left liberals would understand that just because something is permitted legally that the freedom to benefit from that legal right is nothing without the ability to use it.
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J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
No, I assumed it would be bad and that if it was anything else I would hear about it...
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, I watched the whole thing...regrettably.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
cantsin
Well-Known Member
ska invita
back on the other side
many poor people do emigrate within the eu... several members of my close family in fact. It would be interesting to see some stats about wealth levels of people who leave their country of birth to live(aka work) in other eu countries. Id expect a lot more people from below average wealth do it than above average.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Even if that is true it in no way alters my point. Are you seriously trying to argue against the fact that the freedom of movement of people is bound up with class (and race, gender, etc)?
I imagine that quite a few Romany people have emigrated from Hungary (or at least tried to) due to their persecution - is that freedom of movement?
The fact that a such a point is even under dispute is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, 50 years even liberals would accept that real freedoms people have are utterly bound up with their material conditions. Now that appears to be some crazy hypothesis.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
But come on now, no freedom is absolute. Having the current relatively open borders still gives relatively more freedom to even the poorest in Hungary than if the borders were impermeable. If it would make you happier we could say 'relative freedom of movement' every time we refer to it, but I feel that can be implied really - all freedom is relative. Closing the borders so you could no longer catch a (actually pretty cheap) bus from Budapest to London without going through some difficult visa process would still reduce the ability of poorer Hungarians to move around, wouldn't it? As for the push factors, like racism in Hungary, of course it's not 'freedom' in any absolute sense to feel pushed out of your country, but it's still relative freedom compared to feeling appalling racism against you in your home country and *not* being able to move away from it.
ska invita
back on the other side
the persecution of Romany people is racism...deeply embedded racism.
What point exactly are you making about "freedom of movement"?
Your post sounded to me like it was suggesting poorer people can't move as much, hence my response that its the poorest that usually try their luck with emigration much more than wealthier people.
Emigrating because of poverty or persecution, not because you want to, is a tragedy, but in a way its nothing to do with visa-free international border crossing - people have been doing that, and are doing that anyway, whether they are legally allowed to or not! See several million migrants from north africa and the middle east for a current example...or my dad for an example from the communist era. For many of those who lived behind the iron curtain the ability to travel and settle across europe freely is still nothing short of a miracle that no one thought they would see in their lifetimes. I remember the first time i drove across the east german border with a relative and they burst into tears!
It sounds to me like you are making a semantic point about the use of "freedom" within the expression "freedom of movement". "Inter-european Visa-free movement" is more accurate.,,,not sure if that changes the point you are making.
That is not quite right, the poorest cannot emigrate as they would struggle to pay for the air fare and the initial costs (rent and food money while you look for a job) involved in starting a new life in a different country. Those who don't emigrate are either at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder and cannot afford to emigrate or are comfortable and rich enough that they don't need to. It is usually those who work and earn enough to get by but don't earn enough to fulfil their ambitions in life who emigrate.
I literally couldn't afford to move to another country even if I wanted to, I'd need to save a few grand for that and that is money I literally don't have at the moment.
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