Urban v's the Commentariat

[8ball]

This, really. The problem is though that it will always be very easy for them to do it.

There's the option of calling bullshit on it, I guess.

 

[agricola]

There's the option of calling bullshit on it, I guess.

True, but of course that is usually an option when someone comes out with intersectionalisms.

 

[J Ed]

Weird SEP website defends racist, classist 'rapper' Iggy Azalea lol. They actually chose probably the only prominent racist white rapper to make this point about.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Reactionaries really have cottoned on to this nonsense in recent years which is why you have Blairite students successfully using it to outmanoeuvre left-wing students in the NUS, Lib Dem councillors accusing Syriza of racism (and this being taken seriously by groups like London Black Revolutionaries) and the appropriation of intersectionalist language by MRAs and Gamergaters. They can do this because this 'politics' is so utterly devoid of content and a theoretical basis but at the same time is treated seriously by a vocal minority, people said for years that the right would do it and they have.

I'm not sure it's a case of reactionaries appropriating it so much as it being inherently reactionary to begin with tbh

 

[frogwoman]

J Ed SpineyNorman weepiper et al you know you were talking about the far right using this. Watching this itv doc now. Have a look at this - ex NF fash using the language ic intersectionality and identity politics to gain their organisation charitable status.

I recommend anyone with an interest in the far right, jihadism, anti fascism etc to watch this i only just started and its really good.
https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/exposure-charities-behaving-badly

 

[Jezebelle]

you're quite right - the 'they' in my statement were the people who attempt to no platform her. greer understands the class analysis of sex-work and puts it into its correct context. i also meant that for every middle class escort who has "chosen freely" to go into sex work and finds it releatively safe and profitable, there are half a dozen working class women who are chosing between sex work and starvation, or sex work and violence, who work in unsafe situations for little or no profit. their choices are not free - nor are those women who are pimped out, etc etc. enshrining into law the freedoms of the middle classes is to enshrine into law the abuse of the lower classes, IYSWIM.

Oh I see, thought you were talking about the commentariat. You're right, except I'm not convinced over the effectiveness of laws in making things safer. I know some organisation's keep 'dodgy punter lists' and there's (or was) a website for sex workers to warn each other about dangerous men. Same names or descriptions would come up time and time again. These are the kinds of things I see as being more useful at dealing with the realities of sex work.

 

[Jezebelle]

It's also worth mentioning that one of the biggest issues that trans women face is actually economic coercion into sex work and 'transsexual porn' due to prejudice and lack of other options. Don't see the twittersectionalists going on about that tho. I saw a tweet today saying that using the term 'fgm' is actually transphobic

Germaine Greer also mentions that, and the high cost of surgery, in her book that first caused all this outrage.

 

[Jezebelle]

That's the same kind of people who think any kind of discussion about periods or endometriosis or any of the other things that genuinely do only affect women born women is transphobic. They can fuck off. I have no tolerance for that sort of nonsense whatsoever.

I came across this recently during a discussion about periods on a feminist site. Basically, a neo-liberal equality feminist was having a go at a doctor in the UK who was calling for the option of paid 'period leave'; saying it was a ridiculous idea to allow women to miss 'valuable days off work for something so minor as periods'. Lots of women started having a go back at her, which led to what I thought was an important discussion about the impact of periods on our lives. But there was this small group who kept repeating stuff like, 'I'm a man who has periods' or 'I'm a women that doesn't have periods' so everyone should say people who have periods'. Some were calling anyone who'd used the word women transphobic; others were politely asking us to be more considerate, but it was an irritating distraction. Also helped me see how this kind of thing can be about more than policing language. It can end up with self-important side issues overtaking and ultimately, holding-back any kind of progress.

 

[Jezebelle]

There was a case in the US recently where a woman who claimed sex discrimination because of not being allowed to breastfeed had her case thrown out because 'men can also lactate'

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6653418

That's a really good example of side issues being used as excuses to deny employment rights and worsen working conditions.

 

[8ball]

True, but of course that is usually an option when someone comes out with intersectionalisms.

Funny, that.

 

[frogwoman]

I came across this recently during a discussion about periods on a feminist site. Basically, a neo-liberal equality feminist was having a go at a doctor in the UK who was calling for the option of paid 'period leave'; saying it was a ridiculous idea to allow women to miss 'valuable days off work for something so minor as periods'. Lots of women started having a go back at her, which led to what I thought was an important discussion about the impact of periods on our lives. But there was this small group who kept repeating stuff like, 'I'm a man who has periods' or 'I'm a women that doesn't have periods' so everyone should say people who have periods'. Some were calling anyone who'd used the word women transphobic; others were politely asking us to be more considerate, but it was an irritating distraction. Also helped me see how this kind of thing can be about more than policing language. It can end up with self-important side issues overtaking and ultimately, holding-back any kind of progress.

I'm starting to have less and less sympathy tbh. There's a really nasty misogynistic streak in a lot of trans politics and these activists are calling literally anyone who disagrees with them a terf. Some of the stuff they come out with is incredibly fucked up, and i mean this group rather than trans people in general before anyone starts.

 

[NoXion]

Surely the solution should be that people should be allowed to breastfeed their infant or make allowances for the impact of periods, regardless of whether the person in question is (or self-identifies) as female or not?

Or is that too sensible?

 

[toggle]

Surely the solution should be that people should be allowed to breastfeed their infant or make allowances for the impact of periods, regardless of whether the person in question is (or self-identifies) as female or not?

Or is that too sensible?

it is. but there's an unfortunate number of people who consider that anyhting offered to any group that is compensatory for any form of disability/problem/illness/need/etc is a direct attack on everyone else. the sort who would complain that someone needing time off if they had periods that were cripplingly painful should allow them days off cause they suffer by not being allowed to go play golf. the sort with the complete lack of empathy that won't allow them to comprehend that someone would probably rather be at work feeling fine than at home feeling like their insides were being torn out

 

[J Ed]

The above is so true about attitudes to single mums as well. A disturbing amount of blokes really do like to prove their manliness by making asinine comments to other blokes about how "she shouldn't have had kids then" when a single mum has to leave work early to pick up a sick or injured kid.

 

[NoXion]

Don't those kind of people ever get sick or injured? I'm sure if they just broke their leg or were barfing their guts out they'd want allowances made for them. It just strikes me as so pettily mean-spirited to perceive the misfortune of others in such a miserly light.

It must be a miserable existence to think so little of one's fellows. Never mind that the rich and powerful do far worse as a matter of course, "that person over there is on the take!". Sweet suffering fuck.

 

[weepiper]

It's bizarre. 'I am being discriminated against because you are not offering me any allowances for something that does not and will not ever affect me!!'

 

[J Ed]

Don't those kind of people ever get sick or injured?

You just don't understand - only when they/their friends get sick they are actually sick whereas everyone else is just lying to get out of feeling as miserable as they do.

 

[toggle]

You just don't understand - only when they/their friends get sick they are actually sick whereas everyone else is just lying to get out of feeling as miserable as they do.

and they experience events that are genuinely unplanned disasters. everyone else is being irresponsible and expecting other people to cover for them

 

[J Ed]

Also fuck the people who come into work sick and make everyone else ill, do no work, stay sick for ages and brag about how they come into work sick while "pussies" take the time off to get better.

 

[comrade spurski]

Sickness is such an issue in work.
5 days or over in a 12 month period puts you on formal sickness procedures in my council (which is pretty much like most employers)
People are forced into work when ill due to fear of disciplinary action and make others ill...who in turn go to work.
The NHS say to stay at home when you have a bad cold so you do not spread it but that is just not possible.
Employers want to know your sickness over a 2 year period so one bout of the flu 18 months ago can and does cost people new jobs.
In years to come I can see that there will be medical research into the negative health implications of these policies.

 

[DotCommunist]

Also fuck the people who come into work sick and make everyone else ill, do no work, stay sick for ages and brag about how they come into work sick while "pussies" take the time off to get better.

fourby owners who heroically make forth when even the man on the news said 'don't travel' making everyone else look like cunts. No matter that every two out of ten of you cunts cause the biggest headache for the fire bods when they fish your entitled arse out of the river eh. YOU TRIED TO GET TO WORK AND MAKE THE MAN MORE MONEY

 

[DotCommunist]

if there was a proper time and motion study done today considering all factors the schedule would be revised down heavily

 

[8ball]

it is. but there's an unfortunate number of people who consider that anyhting offered to any group that is compensatory for any form of disability/problem/illness/need/etc is a direct attack on everyone else.

It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.

 

[Bakunin]

It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.

Perhaps it's because they've never needed socialised health care that they don't see a need for it, to be fair. They often change their minds when it's their neck on the block.

 

[J Ed]

It's a sign of how the capitalist culture machine has been so incredibly successful - like when people who've never been ill complain about socialised health care.

There are no adults who have never been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.

 

[Bakunin]

There are no adults who have never been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.

I should know. The staff at my local hospital are practically on first name terms with my family.

 

[8ball]

There are no adults who have never been ill, and certainly none who have never had an ill family member.

Certainly the latter, yes. Though there are plenty where the illnesses are not expensive ones of the kind that can utterly wipe out the finances of even quite well off people, so they resent those people where a lot of money gets spent.

 

[toggle]

Certainly the latter, yes. Though there are plenty where the illnesses are not expensive ones of the kind that can utterly wipe out the finances of even quite well off people, so they resent those people where a lot of money gets spent.

even if they have had these expereinces, I think tghere's just a resentment of other people. and a lot of assumptions that their lifestyle is the right choice and others are wrong. it's an entitlement to have more than everyone else and a belief that everyone else should recognise their entitlement.

plus, in a lot of people, the sort who do get insurance of some form and think that means they shouldn't have to pay for the nhs, a complete lack of understanding of how the nhs subsidises their insurance costs. private hospitals here do not have to train staff, they do not have to provide a full range of services, they do not have to provide intensive care or emergancy coverage. because they employ nhs trained staff, they get to specialise in easy cases where they can make the most profit, and if there's a problem, they can transfer the patient to a nhs facility.

 

[co-op]

I'm starting to have less and less sympathy tbh. There's a really nasty misogynistic streak in a lot of trans politics and these activists are calling literally anyone who disagrees with them a terf. Some of the stuff they come out with is incredibly fucked up, and i mean this group rather than trans people in general before anyone starts.

Yep, important to distinguish between different groups within the trans community of course but some of the loudest m-t-f trans activists look basically the same as super-reactionary mra types to me, just with breast transplants added. It's very hard to know what proportion of the trans world these people speak for but they have very successfully appropriated liberationist equality language in pursuit of a very unliberationary and reactionary worldview and I think that has confused quite a few well-meaning people into automatically supporting them, or allowing them to set an agenda unopposed.

 

[J Ed]

Worth noting that while I find a lot of this online 'activism' on both sides absolutely awful and actively harmful from what little I know of it, none of the trans people I have met in real life have had these views or behaved in a way that I would consider misogynist at all whereas I have met a handful of people with very dodgy views towards trans people though tbf none of them feminist AFAIK.