Urban v's the Commentariat

[frogwoman]

its not (usually)women that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.

Although we are seeing an increased number of women carry out the sort of violence usually associated with men (joanna dennehy, the gang who kicked the homeless man to death a few weeks ago) and i think this is worth examining.

 

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I think some radical feminists dont take into account the changes in the labour market that mean that women increasingly are involved in top level management etc (although nowhere near the scale of men) and the expectation that w/c women are both expected to work long hours and be bread winners and look after children and the traditional role women have always had. And working class womens work doing things like commercial surrogacy for wealthy westerners in the third world or cleaning people's houses, terfs on the lines of cathy brennan (a payday loan lawyer) or the ones who do some of those transphobic blogs don't have a good deal to say about it. The other thing is the trend towards diagnosing increased numbers of very young children with gender identity issues and the pressure some younger lesbians and gay men are now describing to transition has also coincided with increased medicalisation and pathologisation of other conditions as well. (Dont expect any understanding from employers about this though.

I haven't seen any attempts by terfs to bring this into their analysis at all. It's all women are oppressed by men without acknowledging the fact it is increasingly women doing that oppression and making these decisions. And the fact the increased roll back of womens rights, abortion rights and so on and the move back to the enforcement of gender roles is taking place at a time when other social protections are being comprehensively dismantled. No no its just men being cunts as usual.

I've got a lot of sympathy towards the anti psychiatry movement and the idea that many mental health conditions are caused by social factors and therefore shouldn't always be treated with medical means. It's not implausible that a society that sets a great store by how men and women should act could at least contribute to the development of gender dysphoria in some people, shit ive sometimes wished i could be a man so i could be treated in a certain way, have more respect given to my opinions etc, i usually avoid talking about feminism and my experiences online for this reason.

So no not a conspiracy against lesbians and women's spaces although there are some very nasty misogynists in that movement who seem to be very vocal in using this language to set the agenda as co-op says. And there are terf types that say all sex sith a man is rape because we are socialised into compulsory heterosexuality which is very similar to the 'sheeple' arguments imo. Feminism used to be about a systematic analysis of women's oppression rather than identy politics which is why these debates are so depressing. Because there is a lot that could be worked together on i think.

iirc, this sums up as that theres often a real point on both sides, but ti's hidden behind the absolutism and shreiking at each other?

i'm with you on that

 

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its not (usually)women that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.

Although we are seeing an increased number of women carry out the sort of violence usually associated with men (joanna dennehy, the gang who kicked the homeless man to death a few weeks ago) and i think this is worth examining.

aggree it's complicated. will reply properly when the cat stops trying to dance on me

 

[smokedout]

its not (usually)women that are commiting violence etc and privileged over trans people is it tho? What about the thousands of women that die as a result of dv? I'm not denying transphobia exists, im saying that the idea that cis women are not privileged over trans women and are by and large not the cause of it.

I think the terf/trans war is a smokescreen really and not the place to examine this, what seems to have emerged there is a highly personalised ugly spat that left behind any semblance of real politics or analysis a long time ago

but seems to me if transphobia exists then to an extent non-trans privilege must also exist, as in a group that isn't susceptible to transphobia - which is something that manifests in many of the same ways misogyny does, as in violence, rape, pressure to confirm to beauty/gender ideals, workplace discrimination but also in some novel ways such as rejection by family, street ridicule/abuse, tabloid outings and generalised everyday anxiety and risk in areas non-trans people never consider, such as which gendered toilets to use or whether you can try clothes on in a shop

 

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right, she's buggered off for now.

no, the violence is not usually the fault of women, but anti trans positions can help in justifying that.

the privilage issue, IDK. I really won't want to get into a long discussion based on a hierarchical discourse that i abhor. because I don't think we should be having the debate on those terms. it should be possible to have discussions about social pressures on gender identity and gender expectations in a way that looks for ways to help everyone understand the issues. it should be possible to have a discussion about some of the things you mentioned in your longer post above, without being attacked by either side for accepting that transpeople exist or that wanting to discuss some of the factors that may affect gender identity equals denying trans* existance.

the part that the terfs have that is a point that is hidden behind the bullshit is how living as your chosen gender is defined by gender expectations. is being transgender a medical or social 'issue'. if it was entirely a social issue, then their point about how it's all based on gender expectations and by removing the expectation of conformity, allowing anyone to express whatever characteristic they want without prejudice, would be a valid one, but i do not believe that is all transgenderism* is. But the other place where discussion of gender expectation is important is where someone is required to live as their chosen gende to transition. what is 'living as a man/woman' and who gets to make that definiation. and i have an impression that at times, this can be based on some gender stereotypes, where what is required of someone to transition isn't something i recognise in my own expereinces of being female.

but the key factor is that many of these discussions aren't able to take place because of the screaming. and nothing is going to get dealt with while discussion is only a battleground between the two sides' extremists.


* IDk if that's the right term to use or not. the medical one is gender identity disorder. or gender dysphoria, and I don't like the way those terms pathologise people.

 

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I think the terf/trans war is a smokescreen really and not the place to examine this, what seems to have emerged there is a highly personalised ugly spat that left behind any semblance of real politics or analysis a long time ago

but seems to me if transphobia exists then to an extent non-trans privilege must also exist, as in a group that isn't susceptible to transphobia - which is something that manifests in many of the same ways misogyny does, as in violence, rape, pressure to confirm to beauty/gender ideals, workplace discrimination but also in some novel ways such as rejection by family, street ridicule/abuse, tabloid outings and generalised everyday anxiety and risk in areas non-trans people never consider, such as which gendered toilets to use or whether you can try clothes on in a shop

and access to support services, eg shelters.

 

[el-ahrairah]

to my mind the sourceof the whole problem is gender, an arbitrary patriarchal social construct. the problem is two different and conflicting ways of defining the word "woman". either a 'woman' is something created by patriarchal society to be the sex and domestic work class, or it is something innate that you just are and has recognisable traits that it can be defined by. in order to be recognised as transgender by the medical system one needs to prove that they 'live as a woman' etc. but what is living as a woman? many feminists would say that living as a woman and being female are not the same thing, because sex and gender are different, and their feminism is about destroying the notions of gender and the limitations and roles pushed onto women that are gender based, and not innate to their genitals. so if these feminists think that performance femininity is bad for women, and transwomen are required to show their performance femininity in order to get the surgery they need, there's a conflict of interests.

or maybe i've got it all arse about face again, i dunno.

 

[smokedout]

the part that the terfs have that is a point that is hidden behind the bullshit is how living as your chosen gender is defined by gender expectations. is being transgender a medical or social 'issue'. if it was entirely a social issue, then their point about how it's all based on gender expectations and by removing the expectation of conformity, allowing anyone to express whatever characteristic they want without prejudice, would be a valid one, but i do not believe that is all transgenderism* is. But the other place where discussion of gender expectation is important is where someone is required to live as their chosen gende to transition. what is 'living as a man/woman' and who gets to make that definiation. and i have an impression that at times, this can be based on some gender stereotypes, where what is required of someone to transition isn't something i recognise in my own expereinces of being female.

the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation. this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.

 

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to my mind the sourceof the whole problem is gender, an arbitrary patriarchal social construct. the problem is two different and conflicting ways of defining the word "woman". either a 'woman' is something created by patriarchal society to be the sex and domestic work class, or it is something innate that you just are and has recognisable traits that it can be defined by. in order to be recognised as transgender by the medical system one needs to prove that they 'live as a woman' etc. but what is living as a woman? many feminists would say that living as a woman and being female are not the same thing, because sex and gender are different, and their feminism is about destroying the notions of gender and the limitations and roles pushed onto women that are gender based, and not innate to their genitals. so if these feminists think that performance femininity is bad for women, and transwomen are required to show their performance femininity in order to get the surgery they need, there's a conflict of interests.

or maybe i've got it all arse about face again, i dunno.

i think you're right in that there's a belief that transgenderism is nothing but 'performance femininity'. but while I have a huge problem with the gender expectations, I think there's more to transgenderism than that. being in the wrong body is about how someone relates to their own body. and while gender expectations can be part of the equation, they aren't the dominant factor

 

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the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation. this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.

Yes. And this particular facet of the discussion tdoes tend to lack loud enough trans* voices. IMo, mainly because those who aggree would get it from both sides of the extremes.



Primarily, I call myself a feminist. and I do think that if we could have a sane and inclusive discussion about these issues, then it would be to the benefit of feminism as a whole as well as to trans* people

 

[frogwoman]

I'd also say the extreme terf discourse is by and large not something i recognise from my own experoences of being a woman. I hardly ever get cat called, i live in a house with three men in their 20s and 30s, as ive been doing for the last two years, and not one has ever tried to rape me or so much as make a pass at me when ive been drunk. i know it is that bad for some women but not everyone is living barefoot and pregnant in a kitchen. The labour market has changed and to some degree the nature of misogyny has also changed. Capitalism compels women to go out to work but as the same time still largely expected to fulfil 'womens roles'.

That said i've seen some fucking disgusting stuff on twitter from trans activists including one who said they'd like to bash lesbians on the head with a rock for not wanting to sleep with them.

 

[el-ahrairah]

and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.

this is quite right and i'm sorry if i came across as blaming them. what i was trying, clumsily as per usual, to say, is that the problem is patriarchal capitalism.

 

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I'd also say the extreme terf discourse is by and large not something i recognise from my own experoences of being a woman. I hardly ever get cat called, i live in a house with three men in their 20s and 30s, as ive been doing for the last two years, and not one has ever tried to rape me or so much as make a pass at me when ive been drunk. i know it is that bad for some women but not everyone is living barefoot and pregnant in a kitchen. The labour market has changed and to some degree the nature of misogyny has also changed. Capitalism compels women to go out to work but as the same time still largely expected to fulfil 'womens roles'.

That said i've seen some fucking disgusting stuff on twitter from trans activists including one who said they'd like to bash lesbians on the head with a rock for not wanting to sleep with them.

yeah, fair point, that kind of shit helps no one

 

[frogwoman]

yeah, fair point, that kind of shit helps no one

Unfortunately thats not the only example, seen some horrendous stuff directed by this particular group of activists at trans women who disagree with them too.

And yeah i'm sorry too if anything i've written comes across as blaming anyone or being prejudiced.

 

[frogwoman]

the courts, doctors and the government get to make those distinctions and those distinctions are based on traditional gender identities and presentation. this places trans-people in a near impossible situation, of course if you want to do away with gender altogether then it is obscene that there are laws that now codify what gender, or more importantly what man or woman is, but in the real world which is a highly gendered society this is the only way trans people can gain any kind of equal rights. so it's a bodge,and reveals that a radical view of transsexuality and how it could be lived/experienced is incompatible with, and impossible under modern patriachy, and its not very fair to blame trans people for that as some do.

I agree 100%.

 

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Unfortunately thats not the only example, seen some horrendous stuff directed by this particular group of activists at trans women who disagree with them too.

And yeah i'm sorry too if anything i've written comes across as blaming anyone or being prejudiced.

clearly both sides have given up on the winning freinds thing. not necessarily a bad thing. the more isolated the screamers become, the more possibility the adults can get some space to talk

 

[frogwoman]

There are also some blogs i follow from a couple of men who identified as trans at one point and had surgery, but then realised they wanted to live as their birth sex, thirdwaytrans.com and retransition.org. both of them have some really interesting stuff to say.

 

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and here's one of the other controversial questions. nothing in this post shall be taken as an indicator on my position. because i loathe the whole idea of defining who is and isn't a proper [insert group member here]

i've seen it asked whether some of the people that the 'bash their head in' stuff is directed at are lesbians. to be very blunt, is being lesbian about who you are or who you do? if the mouthpieces for terfism are political lesbians (choose women, because all sex with men is rape), do they speak for gay women? or are they straight women dictating who gay women should sleep with?

 

[el-ahrairah]

a very good question, and one that in a more general sense, we all need to ask ourselves in our activism. who do we speak for? do they want us to? if not, do we know better than them? etc etc


i thought political lesbians were such because you can't have an equal relationship with a man because even the good ones are still tainted (see the not my nigel meme) by patriarchy and it's impossible to find a man who hasn't been socialised as a woman-hater. you can therefore only form a meaningful relationship with another woman whilst patriarchy exists.

 

[co-op]

and here's one of the other controversial questions. nothing in this post shall be taken as an indicator on my position. because i loathe the whole idea of defining who is and isn't a proper [insert group member here]

i've seen it asked whether some of the people that the 'bash their head in' stuff is directed at are lesbians. to be very blunt, is being lesbian about who you are or who you do? if the mouthpieces for terfism are political lesbians (choose women, because all sex with men is rape), do they speak for gay women? or are they straight women dictating who gay women should sleep with?

Never even thought of that one.

 

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a very good question, and one that in a more general sense, we all need to ask ourselves in our activism. who do we speak for? do they want us to? if not, do we know better than them? etc etc


i thought political lesbians were such because you can't have an equal relationship with a man because even the good ones are still tainted (see the not my nigel meme) by patriarchy and it's impossible to find a man who hasn't been socialised as a woman-hater. you can therefore only form a meaningful relationship with another woman whilst patriarchy exists.

it comes in various shades.

and it also bumps up against whether you can choose your orientation rather than how you express it.and hether that letd you in to which group.

 

[frogwoman]

There are trans activists who think that not liking certain genitalia is transphobic though:

http://chelseapoe.com/2015/02/11/terfs-gold-stars-and-ans-misogyny-that-exists-within-porn/

Being a Gold Star lesbian isn’t an act of trans misogyny. Saying you are a gold star because you don’t like dick however is. Clearly due to the fact that some men have vaginas, some women have penises and there are people are intersex people and non binary people. What saying I don’t like dick so I’m a gold star lesbian means further is you don’t view trans men as men and you don’t view trans women as women.

since when has having a preference for a certain type of genitalia been transphobic? Obviously its not.

 

[J Ed]

There are also some blogs i follow from a couple of men who identified as trans at one point and had surgery, but then realised they wanted to live as their birth sex, thirdwaytrans.com and retransition.org. both of them have some really interesting stuff to say.

A nurse friend has mentioned a few stories like that to me, terrifying

 

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There are trans activists who think that not liking certain genitalia is transphobic though:

http://chelseapoe.com/2015/02/11/terfs-gold-stars-and-ans-misogyny-that-exists-within-porn/


since when has having a preference for a certain type of genitalia been transphobic? Obviously its not.

and it's not IMO, anywhere close to being the most important issue that needs to be discussed. cause there's more important things. there's noright to have sex. and this is a minority issue, even for transwomen, afaik, most are id as hetero-female

 

[frogwoman]

It might be that some people are ignorant or represses sexually and this is why they don't want to sleep with trans people/ cis men/women but its not itself a bigoted act for not wanting to sleep with someone who has those genitals. If a gay man doesnt want to fuck me hes not a misogynist.

 

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It might be that some people are ignorant or represses sexually and this is why they don't want to sleep with trans people/ cis men/women but its not itself a bigoted act for not wanting to sleep with someone who has those genitals. If a gay man doesnt want to fuck me hes not a misogynist.

whatever point there is, more ignorance is fixed through education/understanding than abuse.

 

[frogwoman]

and it's not IMO, anywhere close to being the most important issue that needs to be discussed. cause there's more important things. there's noright to have sex. and this is a minority issue, even for transwomen, afaik, most are id as hetero-female

Yeah i absolutely agree, theres no suggestion most trans people are like this but there are people (the mostly middle class types with an internet presence you mention) and this needs to be repudiated and exposed. Not by 'the trans community' if such a thing exists as im fully aware most are not like this but by progressive activists and anyone who is involved in doing anything around these issues, just as terf shit already is being repudiated and exposed.

 

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Yeah i absolutely agree, theres no suggestion most trans people are like this but there are people (the mostly middle class types with an internet presence you mention) and this needs to be repudiated and exposed. Not by 'the trans community' as im fully aware most are not like this but by progressive activists and anyone who is involved in doing anything around these issues, just as terf shit already is being repudiated and exposed.

or simply refusing to engage with wide scale debates on a right to sex, on defining holier than thou in-group membership, and on the hierarchies in identity politics. the enemy must be partiarchal capitalism that benefits a very small minority, not each other over who is more of a victim of it.

 

[frogwoman]

or simply refusing to engage with wide scale debates on a right to sex, on defining holier than thou in-group membership, and on the hierarchies in identity politics. the enemy must be partiarchal capitalism that benefits a very small minority, not each other over who is more of a victim of it.

Yep theres a shit load we could all work together on.

 

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ok, bear with me while I think through this one. cause trying to maintain sanity while creating logic out of this is doing my head in.


the idea of political lesbianism has sought to redefine what a lesbian is. we're back to the do you define as who you fancy, or who you fuck. so it goes like this. while not all women want to have sex with women, all women should refrain from sex with men. so the lesbian is all women who do not have sex with men, regardless of actual sexual orientation. and speaking on behalf of all women who are lesbian by their definition and promoting the idea that proper feminists follow their rules and are better than those who don't.

and while not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis is not transphobic, that agenda is man-phobic (what's the proper word for that?). it is also transphobic by extension, trnaswomen being a subset of men by their definition.

and if you accepted their logic, then the claims transwomen are seeking to invade women's space and bodies is more comprehensible.

and that's where the other part of the transphobia comes in. the claims that transition is not about the identity of the person transitioning, but is all about, in effect, raping lesbians. someone else's struggles, and problems, and pain is about them.

so a lesbian by the usual accepted definition- a woman attracted to women- not wanting to have sex with a person with a penis is not anyhting to do wth transphobia, but in the context of terfism and political lesbianism, that all becomes a bit more complex. and it may well be everything to do with transphobia.

and now my head really fucking hurts.