Urban v's the Commentariat

[Nigel Irritable]

Maoism is still a real thing in a few bits of the third world. "Maoist Third Worldism" is a few American fantasists, the political equivalent of a World of Warcraft Guild.

The Theory of the Three Worlds was put forward by Mao amongst others. Most Maoists worldwide went along with at the time. However most of what's left of Maoism now rejects it, either rejecting it from the start or coming to their senses later. However, they generally try to hide or simply refuse to believe that Mao backed the 3W Theory.

 

[seventh bullet]

Thanks.

 

[toggle]

big difference by the way between demanding people have sex with you or moaning about no-one wanting sex with you and questioning whether that is because of social dynamics and prejudices or whether trans-people people are just naturally undesirable

I think i've made it clear that I know there's a difference.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

The labour aristocracy stuff is there with the global People's War concept put forward by Lin Biao (they're both central to MTWs politics, or at least one part of them). From what I understand of it, they did reject the Three Worlds Theory, those that became the MTW loons of today. It was never Lin Biao's (he was dead and the tendency he represented was defeated as 'ultra-left' by then). A Maoist doesn't know his/her 'Maoism,' lol.

To make it easy peasy without getting into the sectarian minutiae of crackpot American Maoism I have only a limited knowledge of anyway, here's one of their older videos (before forming LLCO) I posted here ages ago. It's basically their version of Lin Biao's work (which reflected the Chinese alternative for world revolution in the mid-1960s via national liberation struggles, pressuring a revisionist Soviet Union to come back to the cause of socialism and fighting the western imperialists) but adapted to include their 'global class analysis' of no longer proletarian/first-world labour aristocrat shite. From about three minutes in it appears with 'exploiter populations.'



The 'flying leap' talk (reviving a Great Leap politics of sorts in rural areas which the GPCR had opened up for the true believers) lasted briefly from the late 1960s but ended with Lin's death. It wasn't that popular with other military leaders anyway.

All of this is just middle class weirdos with expensive educations and too much time on their hands. Like I said, PD is our best hope for a better world.

Cheers again. Do you have a list of books/reading material going into detail about the minutiae of all this stuff, western Maoism in particular?

 

[smokedout]

I think i've made it clear that I know there's a difference.

for sure I'm not saying you don't, I just struggled to find any evidence of a coherent demand from trans-activists that lesbians should sleep with them that goes beyond questioning whether wider transphobia and idealised versions of desirability lie behind what many trans people have observed as a facet of their lives. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, or maybe this is a slur that has been inserted by the terf movement, because like the pretending to be transsexual to be rapists thing, everyone says it happening, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that it actually is on any significant level, or even at all.

 

[rekil]

The NS is a little bit wealdstone raider.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Maoism is still a real thing in a few bits of the third world.

More or less of a real thing than Trotskyism?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[DotCommunist]

The NS is a little bit wealdstone raider.

View attachment 68121

they don't half comission some shit covers

 

[toggle]

for sure I'm not saying you don't, I just struggled to find any evidence of a coherent demand from trans-activists that lesbians should sleep with them that goes beyond questioning whether wider transphobia and idealised versions of desirability lie behind what many trans people have observed as a facet of their lives. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, or maybe this is a slur that has been inserted by the terf movement, because like the pretending to be transsexual to be rapists thing, everyone says it happening, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that it actually is on any significant level, or even at all.

thanks for educating me about how i'm making it all up and how i'm actually just spreading the terf agenda.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont think im out of order to be fucking furious at things like this (assuming this is genuine, which it may not be)

Its not spreading a terf agenda to acknowledge that this can and is used in reactionary ways any more than pointing out liberals trying to 'defend' immigrants by banging on about british people on benefits are all lazy means your a bnp/ukip supporter. If someone can just declare themselves female and be treated as such where does that leave womens struggles for equality (including trans women who have medically/socially transitioned?)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

More or less of a real thing than Trotskyism?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Depends where. There are places where Trotskyists are a minor but real force in "mainstream" politics. There are places where Maoists are a minor but real force, and there's even one country where they are major players.

Are you still cheerleading for the IWCA? How's the British Athletics Track To Socialism going?

 

[rekil]

Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?

https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?

https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c

Truly great work.

 

[rekil]

We can always count on Tony Parsons.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?

https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c

Timely; the list was looking like it was due an updating

 

[Nigel Irritable]

joolsd still churning them out. Dear oh dear Ronnie O'Sullivan

 

[rekil]

Timely; the list was looking like it was due an updating

Room for plenty more inside.



Tim Cahill has a bit of a nerve, and conferring with Piers Morgan of all people. I wonder how many of these people are engaged in creative tax minimisation strategies and outright fraud. (#makeuthink)

 

[smokedout]

thanks for educating me about how i'm making it all up and how i'm actually just spreading the terf agenda.

I just thought you might have some evidence to back up that claim, which I'd also believed and thought was well dodge, but then when I looked at what was actually being said by trans-activists it wasn't really what I had thought and I also thought they ha, if not a point, then at least a valid reason to dicuss things like the cotton ceiling and shouldnt be attacked for it. But you might have seen some different stuff, thats why I asked.

 

[smokedout]

Its not spreading a terf agenda to acknowledge that this can and is used in reactionary ways any more than pointing out liberals trying to 'defend' immigrants by banging on about british people on benefits are all lazy means your a bnp/ukip supporter. If someone can just declare themselves female and be treated as such where does that leave womens struggles for equality (including trans women who have medically/socially transitioned?)

I think it could be used in a reactionary way, but I don't think it's very likely it will be. It's a bit eccentric, and I don't see many men declaring themselves women in order to score some points, more likely this is someone who is unsure, or is yet to transition, or even someone who is in the process of medical treatment who presents as male (or even someone genetically female who presents as male - these kids are crazy)

I think it's very difficult to challenge without getting in a mess yourself, would it have been okay to say that if she was wearing a dress and heels, at what point does someone else get to decide someone's gender and what criteria should they use. I see your point, but I think this needs to be challenged with care, or perhaps not at all unless it becomes more widespread and starts to look like men (who believe themselves to be men) are actively using this technique to undermine women

 

[bluescreen]

I think it could be used in a reactionary way, but I don't think it's very likely it will be. It's a bit eccentric, and I don't see many men declaring themselves women in order to score some points, more likely this is someone who is unsure, or is yet to transition, or even someone who is in the process of medical treatment who presents as male (or even someone genetically female who presents as male - these kids are crazy)

I think it's very difficult to challenge without getting in a mess yourself, would it have been okay to say that if she was wearing a dress and heels, at what point does someone else get to decide someone's gender and what criteria should they use. I see your point, but I think this needs to be challenged with care, or perhaps not at all unless it becomes more widespread and starts to look like men (who believe themselves to be men) are actively using this technique to undermine women

It is a bit mind-stretching to consider someone amab who presents as male but identifies as female. I can see how that can be and I welcome it really, but can also see how that may seem like people who pass as male seeking to occupy female territory. Obviously even by voicing that misgiving I am wounding those people. But I think their colonisation of female territory and erasure of biology also wounds people who have struggled with biologically female problems. Just my five cents.
Plus this, which is the first thing that came up when I googled cotton ceiling. YMMV.
https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/

 

[smokedout]

from a blogger who says elsewhere that

the patriarchal intent and effect of transgender, which i believe ultimately was to increase womens vulnerability to rape as well as erasing the political implications of men raping women across time and place

 

[bluescreen]

from a blogger who says elsewhere that

Fair enough, we can discount it then along with the redacted lesbian who is surely a figment of hir imagination.

 

[seventh bullet]

Cheers again. Do you have a list of books/reading material going into detail about the minutiae of all this stuff, western Maoism in particular?

Not in detail (the differences), my knowledge of western politics only really skims the surface, and as you said before, there are confusing sectarian disagreements internationally on what 'Maoism' actually is (the legitimacy of M-L-M with RIM following on from the Shining Path?) and what is meant by the term Lin Biaoism related to the GPCR. This is serious business to people actually living with guns hung over their shoulders, not just Americans with blogs, but it's irrelevant to me (I would say that though, being a white first-world labour aristocrat). However...

Maoism in the Developed World - Robert J. Alexander (covers many groups and parties, not sure how thorough or accurate, got it to upload somewhere)
Revolution in the Air: Sixties Radicals Turn to Lenin, Mao and Che - Max Elbaum (good but not much depth, and can upload it)
Heavy Radicals: The FBI's Secret War on America's Maoists - The Revolutionary Union/Revolutionary Communist Party, 1968-1980 - Aaron J. Leonard and Conor A. Gallagher (new out, haven't read it)
The East Is Black: Cold War China in the Black Radical Imagination - Robeson Taj Frazier (likewise new out and haven't read it)

Related to the above, and also see here and here. I would be more sympathetic to those that realised and dealt with their prejudicial behaviour with its ignorance and stereotyping and learned from the environments they placed themselves into than becoming frustrated because the backward proles were doing politics wrong, or weren't interested in it on their terms/experience.

You could look at the Encyclopedia of anti-Revisionism On-Line at MIA. And for Maoism Third-Worldism, just read their own sites (LLCO and RAIM which you mentioned before) for their own positions.

Maybe butchersapron has recommendations on US and European movements in the 1960s/70s.

 

[Lurdan]

A Belden Fields book 'Trotskyism and Maoism: Theory and Practice in France and the United States' is quite interesting imo. The chapters on Maoism used to be on-line and are still at archive.org.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Depends where. There are places where Trotskyists are a minor but real force in "mainstream" politics. There are places where Maoists are a minor but real force, and there's even one country where they are major players.

Are you still cheerleading for the IWCA? How's the British Athletics Track To Socialism going?

Nigel where's your sense of humour; surely you must see the funny side of a Trotskyist having a pop at the real world impact of Maoism.

If you want to talk about my take on the IWCA then this is the place to go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. I like the BRS jibe.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Nigel where's your sense of humour; surely you must see the funny side of a Trotskyist having a pop at the real world impact of Maoism.

Noting that Maoism used to be a significant movement, but now at least outside parts of South Asia, effectively no longer exists should t be particularly controversial regardless of who is talking.

If you want to talk about my take on the IWCA then this is the place to go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. I like the BRS jibe.

Your explanation of the IWCAs preference for community over workplace seems to me to veer towards making a virtue of a necessity. Which is to say, it was perfectly rational for the IWCA to concentrate their small resources in one field and that doesn't really need a somewhat sweeping theoretical justification.

More generally, I note that you reach the conclusion that something like the IWCA will have to be tried again, without attempting a serious explanation of its failure the first time around.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Sorry to see your sense of humour hasn't returned; if you want to talk about the IWCA I think the other thread would be more appropriate.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Idris2002]

Co-author of the chuckle theory piece Joolsd had a go at cataloguing "send the army in!" tweets about the 2011 riots from celebs and a lot of people who have verified ticks. Et tu Gizzi Erskine?

https://storify.com/Occupied_Times/joolsd-s-catalogue-of-the-petty-fascism-of-minor-c

I can't work out how to quote from that Storify thing, but someone called Beverly Knight says:

@kinaton I remember the army going in to quell an incident in Wolves. I was little but can still recall it. They didn't kick off again..xxxx

By "Wolves" I assume she means Wolverhampton. Any idea what "incident" she's talking about? I have no reason for asking other than idle curiousity mind.

 

[danny la rouge]

I never open storify things; life sapping slide shows.

 

[rekil]

I can't work out how to quote from that Storify thing, but someone called Beverly Knight says:

@kinaton I remember the army going in to quell an incident in Wolves. I was little but can still recall it. They didn't kick off again..xxxx

By "Wolves" I assume she means Wolverhampton. Any idea what "incident" she's talking about? I have no reason for asking other than idle curiousity mind.

I was wondering about that one as well. I don't know.