Urban v's the Commentariat

[agricola]

you must really hate desperate and vulnerable women

Not sure how you work that one out; of all the things that might help people in that situation, "changing the law slightly" must be some way down the list of things that would be effective.

 

[el-ahrairah]

everything is peachy, yeah?

 

[agricola]

everything is peachy, yeah?

Of course it isnt.

 

[frogwoman]

what did you feed it?

She was the one who wanted me to pay for organic washing powder.

 

[DotCommunist]

She was the one who wanted me to pay for organic washing powder.

oh my days, the organic freak green. Cleaning products too wasn't it? lol

 

[frogwoman]

no. i'm not goin to reply. I'm not. I'm not nearly pissed enough to actually say what i'm thinking

I suspect she was terf because of the things she said. I remember her telling me about a helpline set up for men who were the victims of domestic violence and it being discovered that most of the men ringing the helpline were the perpetrators or were making it up. Now I know this does happen in many cases but the point of the story seemed to be that if a man says that he is the victim of DV then it shouldn't be believed. The organisation that she was working with also at that time only had a policy of providing services to women born as women, at least it had on the local level. Perhaps that policy has changed (it definitely has on a national level, I fucking hope so) but a few things she said led me to think that she probably agreed with it. However the topic of transgender people never came up so don't know for sure.

I don't think she was a bad person, her stances had been formed by some of the experiences she'd had, she was an awful landlord though.

 

[frogwoman]

On the other hand some of the trans activists seem to be just as bad frankly. Identity politics is so fucking toxic.

 

[Theisticle]

The NS are gross. Well known transphobe writes this piece:
If you believe trans lives matter, don't share Leelah Alcorn's suicide note on social media

http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...dont-share-leelah-alcorns-suicide-note-social

The gall of it. Her note was meant to raise awareness of why so many trans* people are hounded into suicide.

 

[frogwoman]

The NS are gross. Well known transphobe writes this piece:
If you believe trans lives matter, don't share Leelah Alcorn's suicide note on social media

http://www.newstatesman.com/sarah-d...dont-share-leelah-alcorns-suicide-note-social

The gall of it. Her note was meant to raise awareness of why so many trans* people are hounded into suicide.

Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.

 

[toggle]

On the other hand some of the trans activists seem to be just as bad frankly. Identity politics is so fucking toxic.

decending into the worst arseholes on all sides screaming abuse at each other while the rest of us duck the missiles and try to remind people that arseholes don't speak for us?

 

[Theisticle]

Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.

Yep. Ditum is a well known TERF. Christ, they are taking the piss getting her to write that article.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep. Ditum is a well known TERF. Christ, they are taking the piss getting her to write that article.

Why did they ask her to write it?

It's just clickbait isn't it?

 

[Theisticle]

Shameless clickbait. Using the Samaritans guidelines to shut down the debate about trans suicide rates is fucking disgusting.

 

[Bakunin]

Shameless clickbait. Using the Samaritans guidelines to shut down the debate about trans suicide rates is fucking disgusting.

Puts me in mind of a certain NS writer who was once asked not to run a story by the Samaritans, but then went and ran it anyway.

Now who could that be?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Is Sarah Ditum terf isn't she? And she posted her suicide note online in a public forum so of course people are going to read it.

Judging by the content of it I'd say she wanted as many people as possible to read it in order to get the message out - that alone is reason enough to post it IMO

 

[Theisticle]

Puts me in mind of a certain NS writer who was once asked not to run a story by the Samaritans, but then went and ran it anyway.

Now who could that be?

The NS is full of toxic writers. Must be part of the job description.

 

[Theisticle]

Terf Ditum

 

[frogwoman]

Terf Ditum

What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue.

There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do.

I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)

 

[toggle]

What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue.

There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do.

I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)

i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.

AuntiStella thanks for the Ok, if you can add anyhting to any of this, it would be appreciated

 

[frogwoman]

i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.

It doesn't make any sense at all. If someone visibly dresses as the opposite sex then they are obviously going to attract a huge amount of abuse, why would anyone go to such lengths?

 

[frogwoman]

i'm loathe to tag someone nto this thread because they are trans, but they did mention a possible shift in orientation during transition. no idea whetehr their expereinces are common, but it makes the whole transition because of lesbian cunt obsession even more bollocks.

Aren't most trans women straight anyway, I read a survey saying they were? Where does that come into it? I don't understand why they are so obsessed with it? Surely if someone wants to transition to the opposite sex that's up to them?

 

[toggle]

It doesn't make any sense at all. If someone visibly dresses as the opposite sex then they are obviously going to attract a huge amount of abuse, why would anyone go to such lengths?

this is why terf ideaology does not compute.

 

[equationgirl]

I find ditum describing people as 'male women' quite offensive. One, a woman is a woman and using the term 'male' is divisive and serves only to introduce a fake hierarchy where none exists or is even required.

Women need to act together whether cis or trans.

 

[DotCommunist]

I find ditum describing people as 'male women' quite offensive. One, a woman is a woman and using the term 'male' is divisive and serves only to introduce a fake hierarchy where none exists or is even required.

Women need to act together whether cis or trans.

Its supposed to be offensive. Its to say 'I don't grant you the gender you are, you're a bloke in a dress'. Just because its not hur huring about big hands/adams apple and is dressed in jargon doesn't mean its not pretty much the same thing imho

 

[Bakunin]

Its supposed to be offensive. Its to say 'I don't grant you the gender you are, you're a bloke in a dress'. Just because its not hur huring about big hands/adams apple and is dressed in jargon doesn't mean its not pretty much the same thing imho

Journalistically speaking it's called a 'hatchet job.' To the rest of us it's a turd with sprinkles on it.

 

[el-ahrairah]

What are they worried about with the whole women's space thing? There are so few M to F people around, who want to live as women full time let alone medically transition. I don't understand why it's an issue.

There are men who pose as women online to speak to lesbians and bi women (and I had a lot of attention from these sorts of men when I was younger) but I am willing to bet that none were transgender or willing to have a surgical procedure to make them female, or even transition socially the way trans women do.

I can't understand why they are getting upset over it. The misogyny and homophobia that is around has very little to do with transgender women (many of whom are straight!)

there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular who are trying to access their partners or other vulnerable women. we had a client last year who claimed t be transgender and was trying to get a court order so that he could live in a women's hostel and had tried to take the prison service to court to put him in women's prison. he was returned to prison because he groomed a vulnerable underage teenage girl online and she ran away from home to be with him - she was found in his hostel room. this guy is a serial sex offender whose MO is to seek out vulnerable women and to try and use the system to gain access to women. if claiming to be transgender is enough to get you into a women-only safe space, this man is allowed in. he's not the only one in london, sadly. i'm told that one of london's sexual violence support services has a ban list containing dozens of individuals who are known to have done this at some time.

if you say cis-women only for safer spaces you exclude vulnerable transgender women who need safe spaces.

if you allow access to safer-spaces to anyone who claims to be transgender on trust, you're potentially allowing the wolf into the fold.

many womens' organisations these days allow access to transwomen with a gender recognition certificate but not those without - this is criticised because getting transitioned is long and hard and thus they might be refusing services to transwomen in need. others require that you pass as woman - also risking refusing service to vulnerable people.

some have suggested that there should be more specialised sexual violence, counselling, housing etc services especially for transgender people, but does this risk ghettoising?

i dunno, i'm rambling now. but we need to ensure that women's rights are not subordinate to transgender rights, or vice versa. we need to recognise that there can be conflicts of interests. i;m not a liberal, but taking a terf position is wrong, and so is allowing transrights to trump women's rights as some demand.

 

[SpineyNorman]

there are plenty of men who claim to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces - abusive men in particular who are trying to access their partners or other vulnerable women. we had a client last year who claimed t be transgender and was trying to get a court order so that he could live in a women's hostel and had tried to take the prison service to court to put him in women's prison. he was returned to prison because he groomed a vulnerable underage teenage girl online and she ran away from home to be with him - she was found in his hostel room. this guy is a serial sex offender whose MO is to seek out vulnerable women and to try and use the system to gain access to women. if claiming to be transgender is enough to get you into a women-only safe space, this man is allowed in. he's not the only one in london, sadly. i'm told that one of london's sexual violence support services has a ban list containing dozens of individuals who are known to have done this at some time.

if you say cis-women only for safer spaces you exclude vulnerable transgender women who need safe spaces.

if you allow access to safer-spaces to anyone who claims to be transgender on trust, you're potentially allowing the wolf into the fold.

many womens' organisations these days allow access to transwomen with a gender recognition certificate but not those without - this is criticised because getting transitioned is long and hard and thus they might be refusing services to transwomen in need. others require that you pass as woman - also risking refusing service to vulnerable people.

some have suggested that there should be more specialised sexual violence, counselling, housing etc services especially for transgender people, but does this risk ghettoising?

i dunno, i'm rambling now. but we need to ensure that women's rights are not subordinate to transgender rights, or vice versa. we need to recognise that there can be conflicts of interests. i;m not a liberal, but taking a terf position is wrong, and so is allowing transrights to trump women's rights as some demand.

Fucking hell minefield innit? The only thing I'm really sure of is that this transphobic terf stuff is definitely not the answer and its advocates are, as toggle said, a bunch of cunts.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Fucking hell minefield innit? The only thing I'm really sure of is that this transphobic terf stuff is definitely not the answer and its advocates are, as toggle said, a bunch of cunts.

i agree 100%.

 

[toggle]

i dunno, i'm rambling now. but we need to ensure that women's rights are not subordinate to transgender rights, or vice versa. we need to recognise that there can be conflicts of interests. i;m not a liberal, but taking a terf position is wrong, and so is allowing transrights to trump women's rights as some demand.

certainly the example you gave dosen't seem to be anyhting to do with actual transrights. and maintaining a list of those who attempt to abuse women's shelter provision to access vulnerable women seems to be a reasonable solution to this, provided the list isn't being maintained by a cunt.

 

[frogwoman]

How easy it to get a gender recognition certificate?