Urban v's the Commentariat

[DotCommunist]

White supremacy - not racism.

do you mean a doctrine of racial superiority rather than the generalised smelly food xenephobia? cos if so then I'm totally addressing a different point to the one raised. Again.

 

[killer b]

I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?

 

[butchersapron]

do you mean a doctrine of racial superiority rather than the generalised smelly food xenephobia? cos if so then I'm totally addressing a different point to the one raised. Again.

White supremacy is a way of managing organising and reproducing the interests of the dominant class - classcially in the US. It means society is organised on the basis of it - rather than society having expressions of racism but that aren't functional to the system.

 

[caleb]

I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?

Yep. Or the arguments around sex work as a form of individual freedom / bodily autonomy. Yeah, don't do the radfem thing and hate on sex workers but it's easy enough to do that without bending the stick that far the other way.

 

[DotCommunist]

White supremacy is a way of managing organising and reproducing the interests of the dominant class - classcially in the US. It means society is organised on the basis of it - rather than society having expressions of racism but that aren't functional to the system.

now that makes some sense- britain bringing in a large afro carribean contingent do the work. In which case a doctrine of racial superiority would work against capital interests, and common-and-garden non 'special theory' xenephobia works against the interest of the dominant class who want more labour, more cheap, but are not afraid to use the resultant tensions to further purely political aims.

I do hope I have this right, I've spent all day trying to square how capital speaks and how capital operates and what that means for us. Bloody hard work, I would stick to jokes but sometimes you have to think rather than wisecrack.

 

[DotCommunist]

I've noticed that a lot of pro-immigration arguments people spout come from an essentially neo-lib viewpoint - the one that's been irking me recently is the one about how immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, as if the economy is all that matters. Who's economy?

that can often translate into views about the lazy brit worker vs the hard working foriegner.

 

[smokedout]

Nope, you're not talking bollocks -see Walter Benn Michaels and others - a good part of the non-loon US left are starting to get this now.

cheers, liked that, not sure he's quite correct about sexism

If, for example, you are looking to promote someone as Head of Sales in your company and you are choosing between a straight white male and a black lesbian, and the latter is in fact a better salesperson than the former, racism, sexism and homophobia may tell you to choose the straight white male but capitalism tells you to go with the black lesbian.

what if she's pregnant or a single parent?

 

[frogwoman]

Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you

 

[butchersapron]

cheers, liked that, not sure he's quite correct about sexism



what if she's pregnant or a single parent?

I'm sure they can come up with something. He has whole books that do address this though - that was just a quick intro to the idea. The reproductive/productive thing - capital is battering down those doors right now. And part of that is commodifying things precisely things like childcare.

 

[smokedout]

I'm sure they can come up with something. He has whole books that do address this though - that was just a quick intro to the idea. The reproductive/productive thing - capital is battering down those doors right now. And part of that is commodifying things precisely things like childcare.

I wondered if that meant wet nursing may make a comeback, and look: http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2012/01/20/the-return-of-wet-nursing/

 

[DotCommunist]

Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you

that'd be call out culture top trumps shit though- I've got a bisexual brother, I'm poor and mentally not well. 1o pnts here

but whats this- a person of colour? alas I am undone.

Its no basis for a serious discussion is it.

 

[co-op]

I was thinking about this the other day, couldn't it be said that anti-racism is in some way structural to neo-liberalism, as in the best wo/man for the job, in a free, flexible and competitive labour market.. but I find it hard to see how racism is likely to be a stuctural component of the way capitalism is developing ...

Agree with this, I am old enough to have really seen this huge swing in racism from something that was quite general, normal and acceptable in the upper echelons of society to this new taboo that is really horrid and vulgar and probably working class (i.e. this is how it is believed to exist in UK society now by the elites). Of course the reality is that upper social classes are far more ethnically homogenous and socially awkward still about colour and ethnicity while in reality w/c communities have far more integration, but in terms of the expression of political views the upper classes seem to me now to be right on-message.

This swing in how it is viewed absolutely corresponds with the gradual post war collapse of imperial preference/trade preference blocs that sought to defend "their" economic turf from exploitation by foreigners to the new globalised market which requires huge degrees of labour mobility and in which wealthy elites have effectively pooled their turfs and agreed to share the moolah.

Racism is very useful for the first form, the imperial form, not least because it binds groups together in an identity they could be made to fight for in the huge wars that resulted from it, but its an obstacle and a problem for the latter type, the globalised market, and reduces profit-making opportunities rather than enhances them.

I used to wonder at how easily 'anti-racism' won the field (at times it looked like a battle that would be lost to me) but it sort of dawned that it was pretty much intrinsic to the new economy, and - voila! - it just happened.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thing is that if,me and ViolentPanda wanted for example we could accuse anyone who disagreed with us of antisemitism, thing is that way of arguing makes me feel really uncomfortable, like calling someone a paedophile because they didn't agree with you

Also, frankly it's not a mode of argument, it's a way of closing argument down, especially when you don't have an intellectual foot to stand on.
Which is probably why the intersectionalists do it so often.

 

[phildwyer]

Must. . . resist. . .urge to post. . . Irish ape cartoon. . .

 

[fogbat]

If i remember right, when she was told i was irish during her brief sojourn on here she gave some mad essentialist bollocks about gerry adams. Suggests to me that it's not really followed through in any coherent fashion - it is a fashion though.

I believe there was a similar Irish thing during her Kill All Men adventures at the book fair.

 

[Buckaroo]

 

[rekil]

That's my sister-in-law's cousin.

Bonus oppression points

 

[Buckaroo]

That's my sister-in-law's cousin.

That's my ex's class mate. Drummers?

 

[el-ahrairah]

Owen Jones' facebook thread, today:

"So some keep attacking me for being insufficiently loyal to the Labour leadership. Just so everyone's clear: I'm not a Labour party press officer! I spend an inordinate amount of time attacking the Tories and exposing their policies and the consequences on people's lives across the country. I try and take on the myths and lies that underpin their agenda, and often find myself taking on Tory policies and lies when - to be honest - the Labour front bench are Missing In Action. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be critical of the Labour leadership when they fail to stand up for people, or for not offering an agenda that inspires and encourages people. That might upset some people, but in any case, I think that's entirely counterproductive - if more people had spoken out when New Labour invaded Iraq, or abolished the 10p tax rate, or failed to regulate the banks, or didn't deal with the housing crisis - the Labour party might not be in such a mess! So just so everyone is clear - that's what I'm going to keep on doing. Over and out!"

well done Owen, keeping the labour party honest where the plebs failed becuase they just didn't want it enough.

 

[phildwyer]

if more people had spoken out when New Labour invaded Iraq, or abolished the 10p tax rate, or failed to regulate the banks, or didn't deal with the housing crisis - the Labour party might not be in such a mess!

If more people had stopped voting for the buggers the country might not be in such a mess.

 

[butchersapron]

How many people out on f15 would have been enough to make them not political failures and responsible for his parties wars and general policy do we think? 9 billion?

 

[rekil]

That's my ex's class mate. Drummers?

Can't remember tbh. Not a side of the family I know much about really. Still something I can wheel out to win rows though I suppose. (and that's the main thing)

 

[butchersapron]

Does anyone have an answer to my question about owen and Presstv btw?

 

[rekil]

Blame the rats for deserting the ship

 

[smokedout]

Does anyone have an answer to my question about owen and Presstv btw?

I suspect they might have just nicked which means Owen could probably get it taken down, someone he hasn't blocked should ask him on twittet

 

[rekil]

I suspect they might have just nicked which means Owen could probably get it taken down, someone he hasn't blocked should ask him on twittet

The miraculously not blocked yet PD on the case.

UPDATE: OJ denies all knowledge. So either presstv nicked it or the guardian flogged it to them.

 

[Buckaroo]

If more people had stopped voting for the buggers the country might not be in such a mess.

Yer right there and no mistake.

 

[DaveCinzano]

UPDATE: OJ denies all knowledge.

If the tweet doesn't fit, you must acquit

 

[butchersapron]

If the tweet doesn't fit, you must acquit

I tried for ages and couldn't come with anything beyond facts. Which is shit.

But legally sound.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I tried for ages and couldn't come with anything beyond facts.

Facts: the poor man's opinions