rubbershoes
not the only raver in the village
Battle of Cannae was more than 50,000 in a day. But that's neither modern nor in an explosion
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
Major General Charles Harington told war correspondents witnessing the secret operation: “Gentlemen, I do not know whether we shall change history tomorrow, but we shall certainly alter the geography.”
From the linked article. That’s dry, very witty.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
[/QUOTE]
And its hard to get proper figures as ancient historians liked to exaggerate somewhat.
And its hard to get proper figures as ancient historians liked to exaggerate somewhat.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
And its hard to get proper figures as ancient historians liked to exaggerate somewhat.
[/QUOTE]
Whereas today the correct number of losses is never in dispute
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Well true. I mean it might be murky in this war, but in the major wars of the 20th century, historians have plenty of data to pick over.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
when i used to work in a local authority archive there was a man came in who was researching rolls of honour for a school and he found that several of the men listed had survived the first world war. that school unlikely to have been the only list with errors in it, so there will be thousands of people wrongly listed among 'the glorious dead'. and while say the americans can name everyone of theirs who died in vietnam, i don't suppose the same can be said for the vietnamese who they killed. plenty of data doesn't mean plenty of accurate data.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I've posted this before , its a quick article on the calculation of war deaths
War in Ukraine: Why it is so hard to estimate the number of dead?
As in every armed conflict, both Russia and Ukraine have been minimizing their losses and exaggerating those inflicted on the enemy, making it hard to obtain reliable figures.
www.lemonde.fr
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
The amount of Russian deaths in WW2 is still hugely disputed. Estimates vary by millions.
As for Vietnam...
From: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12292260-kill-anything-that-moves
As for Vietnam...
From: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12292260-kill-anything-that-moves
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Not sure what Guy is up to here to be quite honest , unless he is rattling the tin for the American's more arms strategy. Firstly any base line with 2021 is surely a little dubious due to covid secondly I would suggest its not volume of imports that's increased its actually energy prices and finally I think a fuller picture would be last six months 2022 first six months 2023. Anyway up the Lib Dems.
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StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
I'ld say most of that is down to the increase in fossil fuel prices, not avoiding sanctions.Not sure what Guy is up to here to be quite honest , unless he is rattling the tine for the American's more arms strategy. Firstly any base line with 2021 is surely a little dubious due to covid secondly I would suggest its not volume of imports that's increased its actually energy prices and finally I think a fuller picture would be last six months 2022 first six months 2023. Anyway up the Lib Dems.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Various Putin events being well attended by adoring, average Russians...
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spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Interesting Fly on the wall doc on BBC2.
www.bbc.co.uk
BBC Two - Ukraine: The People’s Fight
Film-maker Olly Lambert spends two months on the front line with volunteer special forces.
jimbarkanoodle
Well-Known Member
Great documentary and fantastic to think a few months after it was filmed they had run the Russians out of and retaken Kherson.Interesting Fly on the wall doc on BBC2.
BBC Two - Ukraine: The People’s Fight
Film-maker Olly Lambert spends two months on the front line with volunteer special forces.
not-bono-ever
meh
I’m a bit spooked by the lauding of the death of 400 conscripts across social media tbh. Yes I know it’s war and shit happens but the way this is being heralded is uncomfortable to me.
/ lightweight hand wringer obvs
/ lightweight hand wringer obvs
ska invita
back on the other side
depends what social media you see i guess
everything you can think of is there on social media
a_chap
When the world came apart, where were you?
You're right.
The poor souls should have been spared that awful twist of fate.
So they could then go on to kill hundreds of Ukrainian civilians.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
There’s that.You're right.
The poor souls should have been spared that awful twist of fate.
So they could then go on to kill hundreds of Ukrainian civilians.
And there’s the fact that they were conscripts who didn’t want to be there and probably didn’t want to kill hundreds of Ukrainians even if their incompetent commanders had equipped them with adequate means to do so.
Basically war is shit and ordinary people are pawns and victims of the rich and powerful.
It’s like ordinary life dialled up to 11.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
This is true, but also what a_chap said. War is about them or us.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
It really is.
But I can sympathise with the handwringing too. It's a luxury we can indulge from the relative safety of the UK.
No way if I were in Ukraine.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
That's the way I see it, too. I'm not going to judge Ukrainians for celebrating something like this, but I don't feel entitled to celebrate it myself. Same as I don't much like calling Russians "orcs".
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Once again, this was me listening to the world service, so no link to back it up, but was listening to an interview with a Ukrainian commander in Bakhmut last night. He was describing how they were having to retreat in places because of the waves of soldiers that were being sent at them. They were killing a lot of them, but they keep coming. I know there must be a certain amount of fear from these soldiers, but must still be an incredibly tough thing to do and right out of the Russia's WW2 playbook. Except they haven't got the same population as before and modern weapons are even more devastating. How long can the Russians sustain this kind of warfare?
For us it's simpler than that them or them.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
'War is about them or us' , (a phrase that fits more squarely, in my opinion, if whoever is saying it is actually somehow party to the war directly) only reflects one aspect or feeling about war. It can exist alongside but cannot exclude the other, sometimes inconvenient, aspects of war, for example, the conscientious objectors, those who want peace, and those who dodge the draft or flee the country.
'War is about them or us' doesn't explain or prevent the huge anti-war protests of the late 20c and early 21c, it doesn't cover the instances when civil society has protested about the impact of war measures on day to day lives , the restrictions on trade unions for example or protests about inequalities during a war. Does 'War is about them or us' explain the mistreatment or summary execution of prisoners of war, or indeed the view that POWs should be treated fairly?
It says nothing about who is 'us' and who is 'them', nothing about the vested interests within the 'us' and within the 'them'. It says little or nothing about collaborationist regimes that have occurred during war. The aftermath of WW2 saw the ruling elites of 'us ' in some countries turn on partisan fighters who had fought for 'us' and in other countries sections of the 'us' soon found new 'thems' , sometimes former allies. Of course, the phrase takes on a different meaning during the occasions when the country's rulers have been toppled in the middle of a war and peace agreed with the enemy.
Least of all 'war is about them or us' says nothing about the future after the war.
I think the issue is people seemingly taking pleasure in large numbers of people being killed which is problematic.
For Ukraine it is a matter of us or them, but people on social media expressing glee over soldiers being killed doesn't sit right with me.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
aye save that monicor for the English rugby team
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
the first casualty of war is common sense
clusterfarce
Member
(from Bloomberg)
Marders are 1960s\70s era German armoured personnel carriers. But as they have a 20mm gun on them, they are officially "infantry fighting vehicles". There is a lot of political handwringing about what can and cannot be sent by who and what would be escalatory etc, APCs are seen as non escalatory, so they have been sent in numbers, IFVs were seen as escalatory and have not yet been sent. Several large armies are moving to post cold war systems such as the UK and Germany or have majorly cut down in numbers of soldiers so have spare IFVs that everyone has spent 10 months debating over if its a risk sending them.
The US has all but said its sending its old Bradleys from storage. Once the US has done this others will feel they are politically covered for sending other such systems.
While the 20mm gun is seen as the difference between the two, the late cold war vehicles have much more advanced armour, much heavier and most importantly vastly better sensors, so are just a completely different level. That is likely what the Russians really fear.
Fez909
toilet expert
They're coming
Macron promises 'first Western tanks' for Ukraine
France is set to become the first Western country to deliver tanks to Ukraine, the French presidency announced Wednesday after talks between Emmanuel Macron and Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelensky.…
www.france24.com
clusterfarce
Member
Rumour Putin is going to order a Christmas ceasefire (January 7 in the Orthodox churches.)
Editing in a source
Ukraine rejects call by Russian church head for truce
Editing in a source
No direct link so it will go stage over an hour or two
Ukraine rejects call by Russian church head for truce
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