Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Yossarian]

I think she was paraphrasing Zelensky, who said the something similar on his Washington visit.

Yep, he called aid to Ukraine an investment in democracy - "Your money is not charity. It is an investment in the global security and democracy that we handle in the most responsible way."

Aid to Ukraine is an 'investment in democracy', Zelensky tells US Congress on visit to Washington

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addressed Congress on Wednesday in his first visit to Washington since Russia's invasion. Zelensky said US assistance for Ukraine is not charity but rather an investment…

www.france24.com

This was a day or two before the vote on the $1.7 trillion spending package and the administration was under some pressure to justify spending on Ukraine - the $47 billion to Ukraine definitely got a lot more attention that the other 1,653 billion in the package, though Elon Musk did get a bit worked up about $60 million to protect salmon fisheries.

 

[Yossarian]

Russia, meanwhile, killed at least 10 people and wounded more than 50 others in a Christmas Eve attack on Kherson.

Russia-Ukraine war: Strikes on Kherson kill 10

At least 10 people are killed and dozens injured in Russian air strikes on the recently liberated city.

www.bbc.com

 

[clusterfarce]

You can't honestly believe the US sees it as anything else? They're spending a lot of dosh, and they wouldn't normally hand out cash that easily to anyone; except that in this case it's all going towards wiping out one of their major rivals' armed forces without a single American life being lost.

Ukraine has received $18 billion in aid from the US, the annual USAID budget is $27 billion.
The people at the top also believe the US is putting America and the world on the table in managing the risks of escalation. If they fuck it up and over extend it could spiral into a global thermonuclear war. Every more advanced weapon systems in debated like crazy in case it ends up in an uncontrollable spiral to us all dying. We could fill Ukraine with systems that would smash the Russian logistics but at risks some deem very serious (others dismiss its complex) and in turn the longer the war goes on the more economic damage it wrecks to other US allies.
Also from many if not most Americans perspective, this is the US taxpayer backfilling on Europeans shirking their collective security responsibilities. Other than Finland where is Europes artillery stocks? Artillery is cheap. Its not flashy, the US is having to dig into its planned war stocks to keep Ukraine going (Ukraine's own stocks had a couple of mystery fires before the war). Europes economy is bigger than the US's where is the artillery ammunition? You can dispute the validity of that perspective but you chose to present things from Americas.

You know sometimes people do shit out of good faith. Germany is swallowing a big recession to cut down on Russian gas. The Baltics are making a very very very powerful neighbour enemies for a generation. Finland has given up on the policy of neutrality that allowed a very sparsely populated country to navigate its ex colonial powers rises and falls while not attracting too much attention. Outside the smirking, gloating "I dont think much but here is my hot take" world. This is a war that is seeing people in Ukraine freeze and die because we are restraining ourselves in what we can do to help them to stop this turning into the last page in history and countries are taking blind leaps of faith of supporting Ukraine hoping that the US does not turn into a Trumpian nightmare and the EU collapse into petty populist fiefdoms leaving their balls on a Russian chopping block.

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm reading that there are now 68 people injured in Kherson, as well as 10 dead as Yossarian said above.
Horrible attacks on the city on Christmas Eve, a nasty fuck you from Russia to ordinary people just for being Ukrainian.

 

[TopCat]

How much money has the West spent on the Ukraine war?

A German research institute is tracking the funding flowing to Kyiv from its allies as Russia’s offensive grinds on.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[kabbes]

Watching the ITV drama Litvinenko, you can’t help but wonder what would be different now had the world drawn a line back then. Was Putin emboldened by being able to assassinate people around the world with apparently no consequences?

 

[StoneRoad]

Watching the ITV drama Litvinenko, you can’t help but wonder what would be different now had the world drawn a line back then. Was Putin emboldened by being able to assassinate people around the world with apparently no consequences?

I suspect that, and the limited reaction to the land-grab with Crimea etc in 2014, definitely made him think no-one would care enough to stop him in 2022.
That was a major miscalculation on his part.

 

[Pickman's model]

I suspect that, and the limited reaction to the land-grab with Crimea etc in 2014, definitely made him think no-one would care enough to stop him in 2022.
That was a major miscalculation on his part.

No one did care enough to stop - prevent - him. He was widely expected to romp home despite the Western training Ukraine forces had received

 

[steveo87]

Russian sausage tycoon Pavel Antov dies in Indian hotel fall

Meat millionaire Pavel Antov, who recently denied criticising the war in Ukraine, had just turned 65.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[StoneRoad]

Russian sausage tycoon Pavel Antov dies in Indian hotel fall

Meat millionaire Pavel Antov, who recently denied criticising the war in Ukraine, had just turned 65.

www.bbc.co.uk

defenestration thread --->

 

[steveo87]

defenestration thread --->

Ah man, I've had that gif lined up for weeks!

 

[two sheds]

Sausage tycoon

 

[existentialist]

Watching the ITV drama Litvinenko, you can’t help but wonder what would be different now had the world drawn a line back then. Was Putin emboldened by being able to assassinate people around the world with apparently no consequences?

Undoubtedly, he was emboldened. But I suspect he couldn't quite believe his luck when we failed to respond to the Litvinenko assassination, and the Skripal attack, not to mention our pathetic response to the invasions of Donbas and Crimea.

I suppose, if there's one good thing to be said for it, it probably led him to expect that the West would be similarly meh on 24th February last year. Whether that leads to an overall better outcome is anyone's guess, and there will have been a lot of lives lost - and irreparably damaged, physically and psychologically - in the process of finding out.

 

[clusterfarce]

Its unlikely there is one event that brought us to this pass. Putin started by blowing up apartment blocks to help start the Second Chechen War and use that as a springboard to move from Prime Minister to President, the world let him get away with that and flattening Grozny. He invaded Georgia and took about 10% of its territory with no repercussions, people have mentioned Crimea and the Donbas, the shooting down of MH17, the intervention in Syria and Obama drawing then ignoring supposed "red lines" on gas attacks.
Exactly what should have been down when is an open question but I think any stronger actions to most of those events would have stirred controversies and not really been seen as acts to strengthen European peace by many.

There is also that Putin and Xi seemed to have come to believe the west was in decline post 2008, financial, moral and militarily. They both seem to have been suckered into thinking their macho approach to politics was not being pushed back on because the west was falling into chaos and moral decline. It was not that long ago you would find predictions of China surpassing the US's economy by something like 2023/4, though predictions like that existed for the USSR in the 60s and Japan in the 80s.

I dont think we can really wish for a more hawkish foreign policy to have stopped an attack that now looks like madness.

 

[donkyboy]

So another two Russians dead. this time in India. Killed hisself. Balcony. Russian critics always seem to either fall off balcony or commit suicide...

 

[Spymaster]

So another two Russians dead. this time in India. Killed hisself. Balcony. Russian critics always seem to either fall off balcony or commit suicide...

There seems to be something in the Russian psyche that makes jumping from windows the most popular method of suicide, yet it's quite uncommon in the rest of the world.

 

[Pickman's model]

There seems to be something in the Russian psyche that makes jumping from windows the most popular method of suicide

I think you'll find it's hanging.

 

[DaveCinzano]

There seems to be something in the Russian psyche that makes jumping from windows the most popular method of suicide, yet it's quite uncommon in the rest of the world.

The Russian version of Playshool must be bleak

 

[The39thStep]

I think she was paraphrasing Zelensky, who said the something similar on his Washington visit.

Her exact words are a little confusing tbh “The Ukrainians have proven that they are a really good investment for the United States,” she said. “They are not asking us to be there to fight their war; they’re fighting it themselves.

I don't think there's any doubt in what this fella says though

 

[turing test]

This is already being used against McConnell.

It's not hard to see why.

 

[ska invita]

This is already being used against McConnell. It's not hard to see why.

for breaking the rules of parlour politeness

 

[ska invita]

resposting from a different thread

The BBC’s Russian service is today carrying an interview with Ukrainian military intelligence chief Kirill Budanov in which he says that the war on the ground is at something of a stalemate. The BBC quotes him saying: "The situation has just stalled. The situation is not developing at all. We can’t completely defeat them on all fronts. They can’t either."

good to hear it out in the open
whether a Russian February offensive or new Ukrainian arms make any difference is impossible to know but I expect this grind is basically it.

ETA: heres the translation

"ÐÑ ÑейÑÐ°Ñ Ð½Ðµ можем Ð¸Ñ ÑазгÑомиÑÑ, они Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñоже". ÐнÑеÑвÑÑ Ðи-би-Ñи Ñ Ð½Ð°ÑалÑником военной Ñазведки УкÑÐ°Ð¸Ð½Ñ ÐиÑиллом ÐÑдановÑм - BBC News Ð ÑÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ ÑлÑжба

ÐиÑилл ÐÑданов ÑÑиÑаеÑ, ÑÑо ни одна из ÑÑоÑон пока не Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÑ Ð´Ð¾Ð±Ð¸ÑÑÑÑ Ð·Ð½Ð°ÑиÑелÑнÑÑ ÑÑпеÑов, и Ð¶Ð´ÐµÑ Ð¿Ð¾ÑÑавок ÑовÑеменного западного оÑÑжиÑ.

www-bbc-com.translate.goog

 

[Yossarian]

While McConnell does of course deserve to be fed to alligators, his remarks on aid to Ukraine being an investment in American interests don't appear to contain anything especially controversial.

Helping equip our friends in Eastern Europe to win this war is also a direct investment in reducing Vladimir Putin’s future capabilities to menace America, threaten our allies, and contest our core interests. Defeating Russia’s aggression will help prevent further security crises in Europe.

It will prevent even further economic chaos that would roil key American trading partners and hurt American workers and families directly. It will massively wear down the arsenal that is available to Putin for future efforts to use bullying and bloodshed to redraw still other borders down the road. And it will send a stark warning to other would-be aggressors like the People’s Republic of China.

By assisting Ukraine today, America is directly demonstrating our commitment to the basic principles of territorial integrity and national sovereignty — changing the calculus for others considering military aggression and lowering the odds of far costlier and far more deadly future conflicts in the process.

The context, again, is defending aid to Ukraine amid criticism from far-right members of his party who are pretending the administration is taking money out of a big pot marked "Border Security for Americans" and putting it a pot labelled "Border Security for Ukraine."

 

[Artaxerxes]

Undoubtedly, he was emboldened. But I suspect he couldn't quite believe his luck when we failed to respond to the Litvinenko assassination, and the Skripal attack, not to mention our pathetic response to the invasions of Donbas and Crimea.

I suppose, if there's one good thing to be said for it, it probably led him to expect that the West would be similarly meh on 24th February last year. Whether that leads to an overall better outcome is anyone's guess, and there will have been a lot of lives lost - and irreparably damaged, physically and psychologically - in the process of finding out.

Putin relies on fait acompli and the west's expectation that tomorrow is the same as yesterday, we saw the dithering from most countries at the dawn of the invasion and it was Zelenksys leadership that saw them get off asses and respond. If Zelenksy had done as Putin expected and run away, or if Ukraine had lost Kiev as expected then Putin would be ruling the ashes and murdering with impunity.

 

[ska invita]

While McConnell does of course deserve to be fed to alligators

Why?

 

[Yossarian]

Why?

Hard to pick out the lowlights from his seven years as leader of Senate Republicans - I guess one standout is the way he blocked hearings on Obama's Supreme Court nominee in March 2016, arguing that it was too close to the November election, then helped push through the confirmation of Trump's third nominee a week before the 2020 election, giving the court a conservative supermajority that proceeded to overturn Roe v Wade etc.

 

[ska invita]

Hard to pick out the lowlights from his seven years as leader of Senate Republicans - I guess one standout is the way he blocked hearings on Obama's Supreme Court nominee in March 2016, arguing that it was too close to the November election, then helped push through the confirmation of Trump's third nominee a week before the 2020 election, giving the court a conservative supermajority that proceeded to overturn Roe v Wade etc.

ah, ive never heard of him, i thought you were referring to his comment
sure then, chuck him in

 

[The39thStep]

ah, ive never heard of him, i thought you were referring to his comment
sure then, chuck him in

Steady . Whose going to defend the Republican position against the far right members if he goes to the alligators?

 

[ska invita]

Steady . Whose going to defend the Republican position against the far right members if he goes to the alligators?

true - he's clearly a bulwark of a man whose time has come
weird world

also weird that no English language news seems to be reporting that interview with Kirill Budanov...Ive had a google....Id have thought English language BBC would run it at the very least

 

[The39thStep]

true - he's clearly a bulwark of a man whose time has come
weird world

also weird that no English language news seems to be reporting that interview with Kirill Budanov...Ive had a google....Id have thought English language BBC would run it at the very least

This English language BBC?

Ukraine fighting is deadlocked, spy chief Kyrylo Budanov tells BBC

Kyrylo Budanov says neither side can make significant advances, and eyes advanced Western weapons.

www.bbc.com

When you posted the Russian one I wondered if it was because the Russian one said something different but it doesn't