Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[The39thStep]

Stumbled into the literary jumble sale of musty tweed topcoats, as it were.

leather arm patches and the smell of cherry tobacco

 

[Cid]

Potentially something a bit dodgy about that rally by the way.

Consensus seems to be technical cut-out. Nature of said technical cut-out potentially interesting... But also potentially not. Cock-ups happen all the time, and are not exactly unprecedented in Putin's Russia.

 

[Pickman's model]

Consensus seems to be technical cut-out. Nature of said technical cut-out potentially interesting... But also potentially not. Cock-ups happen all the time, and are not exactly unprecedented in Putin's Russia.

And we do cock-ups of a world class standard here too

 

[two sheds]

They may have bussed in the GB News technical team.

 

[cupid_stunt]

They may have bussed in the GB News technical team.

Well they do own them, why not?

 

[Dystopiary]

There's a fair bit of reporting saying public employees, students etc were 'encouraged' to attend. e.g:

I did wonder if it might be a bit like when all those people were publicly mourning Kim Jong-il.

 

[friedaweed]

You might have already seen this, but Rob Lee is maintaining a twitter thread of all the Russian soldiers confirmed dead. Obviously there are far more then confirmed dead in the thread, but these are the ones to have been confirmed in Russia via news reports and/or public funerals, so tending to be the higher ranking soldiers.



This is a particularly noteworthy/deserved one, which might be the one you were referring to:

Why do so many of their top brass have Tefal heads

 

[Raheem]

This doesn't sound good.

 

[emanymton]

This doesn't sound good.

View attachment 314909

Really break

Fighting in for centre of Mariupol reported as well, which doesn't sound good either.

 

[Gramsci]

Can anyone explain why the Azov regiment wasn’t disbanded prior to the invasion ?

Good question and no one has answered it.

Given that the conflict now is being viewed as Good ( democracy/ European values etc) vs Evil ( Putin and his mad anti democratic chauvinist authoritarianism) I'm wondering why Azov being incorporated into Ukrainian military isn't seen as a problem by the "West". Or view here that Putin is worse. So set it aside for the moment.

A way to get these Ukrainian fascist out of the military could be, for example, for the West to give arms with condition that far right militias are expelled from Ukrainian military. That Ukrainian armed services screen people for for right sympathies before letting them join.

Bottom line would be that no arms to groups in Ukraine who are far right.

 

[Raheem]

This doesn't sound good.

View attachment 314909

I've been checking the story with other sites, and it doesn't seem to be any sort of mistranslation or anything. The Russians are basically openly admitting to intercepting people in the humanitarian corridors who they suspect of having defended the city, and killing them.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Good question and no one has answered it.

Given that the conflict now is being viewed as Good ( democracy/ European values etc) vs Evil ( Putin and his mad anti democratic chauvinist authoritarianism) I'm wondering why Azov being incorporated into Ukrainian military isn't seen as a problem by the "West". Or view here that Putin is worse. So set it aside for the moment.

A way to get these Ukrainian fascist out of the military could be, for example, for the West to give arms with condition that far right militias are expelled from Ukrainian military. That Ukrainian armed services screen people for for right sympathies before letting them join.

Bottom line would be that no arms to groups in Ukraine who are far right.

One argument could be that by incorporating Azov into the army it can be controlled, its ideology (if it has one) can be watered down, its purity as a militia diluted. Right now the Ukrainian military won't be rejecting anyone willing to fight alongside them. If they did, or could, expell them what would that achieve ? A militia with far right leanings left to do its own thing. That might be worse.

 

[Dogsauce]

Another end-of-level boss bites the dust, apparently.

 

[Gramsci]

One argument could be that by incorporating Azov into the army it can be controlled, its ideology (if it has one) can be watered down, its purity as a militia diluted. Right now the Ukrainian military won't be rejecting anyone willing to fight alongside them. If they did, or could, expell them what would that achieve ? A militia with far right leanings left to do its own thing. That might be worse.

I thought the the justification of supporting Ukrainian was about defending democracy etc against authoritarianism and Putin right wing nationalism.

That this justified supplying arms and weapons. ( Ukraine was getting military support prior to invasion btw)

Now your saying letting fascists join the military is OK because they can be talked out of there obnoxious views once in the military. Interesting view of how to deal with far rigtht. Let them join up be trained to use weapons then ask them to be a bit more tolerant. So what happens if they don't? How in practise will this be done?

What The39thStep was asking was why wasn't Azov dispanded prior to invasion?

Given that Ukraine President is going around asking for Western support. That Ukraine is front line in defence of Western values etc I'm perplexed having far right/ fascists in the army is some how ok.

On pragmatic level it might be difficult to do now. But "West" should seek gaurentees from Presidents that after war these people will be rooted out of Ukrainian armed forces.

 

[Supine]

I thought the the justification of supporting Ukrainian was about defending democracy etc against authoritarianism and Putin right wing nationalism.

That this justified supplying arms and weapons. ( Ukraine was getting military support prior to invasion btw)

Now your saying letting fascists join the military is OK because they can be talked out of there obnoxious views once in the military. Interesting view of how to deal with far rigtht. Let them join up be trained to use weapons then ask them to be a bit more tolerant. So what happens if they dont?

What The39thStep was asking was why wasn't Azov dispanded prior to invasion? Given that Ukraine President is going around asking for Western support. That Ukraine is front line in defence of Western values etc I'm perplexed having far right/ fascists in the army is some how ok.

On pragmatic level it might be difficult to do now. But "West" should seek gaurentees that after war these people will be rooted out of Ukrainian armed forces.

You’re probably sitting comfortably at home posting about this. Ukrainians are currently fighting for their lives and country. Do you really think they have time to check each other’s credentials? Or have the luxury of selecting who can apply to fight with them?

 

[dilute micro]

Another end-of-level boss bites the dust, apparently.

Based on the Kadyrov story I think it's possible the Ukrainians are sending Russian generals a map of Ukraine asking them "Where are you definitely not located at?".

 

[emanymton]

I thought the the justification of supporting Ukrainian was about defending democracy etc against authoritarianism and Putin right wing nationalism.

That this justified supplying arms and weapons. ( Ukraine was getting military support prior to invasion btw)

Now your saying letting fascists join the military is OK because they can be talked out of there obnoxious views once in the military. Interesting view of how to deal with far rigtht. Let them join up be trained to use weapons then ask them to be a bit more tolerant. So what happens if they don't? How in practise will this be done?

What The39thStep was asking was why wasn't Azov dispanded prior to invasion? Given that Ukraine President is going around asking for Western support. That Ukraine is front line in defence of Western values etc I'm perplexed having far right/ fascists in the army is some how ok.

On pragmatic level it might be difficult to do now. But "West" should seek gaurentees from Presidents that after war these people will be rooted out of Ukrainian armed forces.

The point of support Ukraine is to support a the right to self defence against imperial aggression as far as I am concerned.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I thought the the justification of supporting Ukrainian was about defending democracy etc against authoritarianism and Putin right wing nationalism.

That this justified supplying arms and weapons. ( Ukraine was getting military support prior to invasion btw)

Now your saying letting fascists join the military is OK because they can be talked out of there obnoxious views once in the military. Interesting view of how to deal with far rigtht. Let them join up be trained to use weapons then ask them to be a bit more tolerant. So what happens if they don't? How in practise will this be done?

What The39thStep was asking was why wasn't Azov dispanded prior to invasion? Given that Ukraine President is going around asking for Western support. That Ukraine is front line in defence of Western values etc I'm perplexed having far right/ fascists in the army is some how ok.

On pragmatic level it might be difficult to do now. But "West" should seek gaurentees from Presidents that after war these people will be rooted out of Ukrainian armed forces.

I'm not saying all that you say I am. I was thinking of things from a possible perspective of the Ukrainian military. Not what I think.

 

[Gramsci]

You’re probably sitting comfortably at home posting about this. Ukrainians are currently fighting for their lives and country. Do you really think they have time to check each other’s credentials? Or have the luxury of selecting who can apply to fight with them?

What I object to on this thread is this view.

Its why Ive avoided posting here.

After a while this is what you get.

I think As I'm in a country supplying weapons I should be entitled to a view of gaurenting who they go to. Its Imo totally legitimate to have a view.

 

[Gramsci]

The point of support Ukraine is to support a the right to self defence against imperial aggression as far as I am concerned.

So it good vs evil and their is no nuances at all in this conflict.

 

[emanymton]

So it good vs evil and their is no nuances at all in this conflict.

Yes that is exactly what I said.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes that is exactly what I said.

I beg to differ.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It may not be good vs evil, but I can see no good at all in Putin and his gang. No good intent. No good practice. Non stop lies, barbarity and a complete casual indifference to any principles of humanity.

 

[emanymton]

I beg to differ.

You are the once with no nuance you fucking prick. I guess you want Russia to blow up a few more maternity hospitals to liberate us from the fascists. Fuck you going on ignore before you really piss me off.

Fucking cunt

 

[Gramsci]

You are the once with no nuance you fucking prick. I guess you want Russia to blow up a few more maternity hospitals to liberate us from the fascists. Fuck you going on ignore before you really piss me off.

Fucking cunt

Precisely why I've avoided posting on this thread.

Your confirming why I've only posted occasionally on it.

The level of nastiness and pure abuse on this thread has gone beyond reasoned debate. Or any respect for differing views.

This is a post that is frankly disgusting.

 

[Raheem]

You couldn't really disband the Asov Regiment right now. They'd just go freelance and you'd end up having to explain to the world why Russian soldiers were being hanged in the town square.

 

[frogwoman]

Nobody is gonna disband any armed battalions right now lol.

 

[kebabking]

So it good vs evil and their is no nuances at all in this conflict.

The opposite - there is nuance: Ukraine is a state/society with some imperfections, it is by no stretch perfect, and the 'long grass' it's applications to both the EU and NATO in are by no means entirely down to its territorial dispute with Russia.

Russia however is a whole other barrel of fish.

It's the difference between a medium grey and an almost coal mine black.

It's only the headbangers who can't cope with the nuance and the shades of grey - as demonstrated more widely by the endless splits, denouncements and feuds within the left itself - so obsessed with ideological purity that they can no longer differenciate between greys and darker greys, because, to them, all that is outside their groupsicle is jack-booted fascism, and indistinguishable from each other.

Everyone else can cope with differing greys, and sub-optimal, but workable, solutions - it's only the obsessives and the cranks who can't...

 

[existentialist]

The opposite - there is nuance: Ukraine is a state/society with some imperfections, it is by no stretch perfect, and the 'long grass' it's applications to both the EU and NATO in are by no means entirely down to its territorial dispute with Russia.

Russia however is a whole other barrel of fish.

It's the difference between a medium grey and an almost coal mine black.

It's only the headbangers who can't cope with the nuance and the shades of grey - as demonstrated more widely by the endless splits, denouncements and feuds within the left itself - so obsessed with ideological purity that they can no longer differenciate between greys and darker greys, because, to them, all that is outside their groupsicle is jack-booted fascism, and indistinguishable from each other.

Everyone else can cope with differing greys, and sub-optimal, but workable, solutions - it's only the obsessives and the cranks who can't...

Thank you.

 

[not-bono-ever]

probs not relevant, but is tank warfare finished ? the vids that are streaming across SM of tanks going up are horrendous. Cannot imagine wanting to be in such a lump with the weaponry being used against them. awful