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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Really nice web site / story with war status

that's a fascinating link and one which deserves a better description and summary than 'really nice web site / story with war status', perhaps something along the lines of 'very useful text and graphic guide from the ft involving maps, video and text analysing why the war has gone how it has, warning we're not hearing about difficulties the ukrainians have faced, and pointing out that russia is now starting to fight as they were expected to'
 
Not exactly directly related, but just a thought, does Putin needing to use military force to secure his interests in Ukraine suggest that the accounts about sophisticated Russian techniques to influence public opinion in Europe and the US are in fact complete bollocks?
More that people have got wise to them, and that the west has got better at countering them. Weapons/tactics work until they don’t work, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t work.
 
Not going to defend the death penalty, but I don't think it's wildly inconsistent for Schwarzenegger to advocate executing the San Francisco Strangler or the San Diego Decapitator or whoever while also calling for an end to the slaughter of Ukrainian civilians, tbf.
Don’t you understand that Annie did the wrong sort of propaganda. I mean eloquently using emotion to attempt to build rapport and then influence a change in thinking in the recipients: What was he thinking?

The only true propaganda is either a six page closely typed argument about why people very similar to the author are wrong and calling upon the (other) workers to rise up against their chains against their immediate oppression and NATO OR an elderly ‘strong man’ shouting about how he is the only path to glory.

At this rate you will never get your NVQ level 3 in anarchism…
 
More that people have got wise to them, and that the west has got better at countering them. Weapons/tactics work until they don’t work, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t work.

That sounds a bit fanciful - people have got wise to misinformation on social media?
 
Enough. This is just turning into a stupid derail. I'm talking to you in English, and you seem to be listening in some kind of misty-eyed adolescent idealistic fantasy. I'm done.
You've got away with a lot here because of your regurgitating of Twitter and Facebook discussions of various subjects over the years making it look like you know stuff. And to be honest I've appreciated it as I don't have time to look at those threads as I have a full-time job. But when you start trying to add your own analysis you come unstuck I'm afraid. Keep it up by all means and I'll keep liking the factual posts but please don't pretend you know what you're on about. It's embarrassing.
 
My skepticism is less about whether those setbacks were real, more about the full implication of those setbacks and whether they meant Russia couldnt make more progress in future. And I was especially skeptical when these claims were made at a time when Russian gains could still be seen happening on war maps. Since then the maps have changed little when it comes to the north and Kyiv, and with every day that this remains the case it seems the word 'stalled' gains credibility. There are still limits as to how far I can run with these ideas, but my stance inevitably starts to shift as more estimates of when large Russian action in the north will resume are missed. All the same, I still cannot make confident claims that Russia cannot possibly make more gains in the Kyiv region.

I'd add to this: we're all very aware of Russian misinformation and propaganda here, but we should remember it wouldn't be very clever for Ukraine to be putting out news saying that Russia was not experiencing any difficulties.

Zelensky needs to balance the need for stressing the suffering of civilians to encourage more aid and support from other countries with the need to keep up the morale of Ukrainian troops and civilians and causing Russians to question the wisdom of the invasion. Not doing so would be stupid.

Its a warzone. We shouldn't be too certain about any information coming from the front lines.
 
My skepticism is less about whether those setbacks were real, more about the full implication of those setbacks and whether they meant Russia couldnt make more progress in future. And I was especially skeptical when these claims were made at a time when Russian gains could still be seen happening on war maps. Since then the maps have changed little when it comes to the north and Kyiv, and with every day that this remains the case it seems the word 'stalled' gains credibility. There are still limits as to how far I can run with these ideas, but my stance inevitably starts to shift as more estimates of when large Russian action in the north will resume are missed. All the same, I still cannot make confident claims that Russia cannot possibly make more gains in the Kyiv region.
Not saying you're wrong. Its easy to get over confident cos of the pro-Ukrainian propaganda and you've been providing a valuable "woah there" . However - I think after 3 weeks in Id say the stories of russia having major - possibly critical - difficulties have turned out to be pretty reliable.
 
Basically anti-war protesters in Russia are viewed in the same way that Covid loons are here, a small bunch of cranks despised by the majority and seen as dangerous and irresponsible. I wouldn’t rest any hope on them.
Nah, I don't think that's entirely true tbh. I think a better analogy is maybe corbyn supporters c. 2017-2019 (but even then thats not perfect). Loads of russian celebs popular with young people have come out against the war and anti war sentiment is very common among younger people and people in cities. But there's definitely people who think they're a threat to security etc
 
We're sadly so atomised and enmeshed in the coils of an ever more complex economic dispensation that it might only be as the necessary defenders of the homeland that we realise and remember the true power is ours together, only sudden catastrophe seems to break through the new normal now.
So if anywhere, it'll be in Ukraine we see the class act, as has begun in the mutual aid we've read reports of. Even though Russians will suffer horribly back home too, not sharply and acutely enough to tip the balance against the controls, I think. And history says that even if Ukrainians want to win the peace afterwards too, gains often get promptly clawed back as the dust settles.
A new Russian revolution won't come until VP dies (which could be sooner than we think), and if the rival successors are unable to fully overcome each other. That's what might provide an opening for the broad masses to overthrow oligarchy. With the emphasis on "might", "possibly", "perhaps".
 
I think he means that, if these were Russia's goals, it wasn't worth the invasion. It's quite a weird article though... I mean a) I'm guessing those were not Putin's goals, and b) he brushes off disarmament of Ukraine as just a 'face-saving' thing for Putin, and easy for Ukraine to accept.

Yeah that struck out at me. Disarmament is huge it is barely mentioned. Honestly don't put much stock in this one.

Yeah and it is John Simpson, who I was somewhat surprised to discover is still working in this role.

I'm tempted to think of the article as an interesting attempt to make Putins terms seem like much less than what he really aimed for, and thus just a face saving exercise on his part, rather than something that actually seems to cover the main things they wanted out of this conflict. One missing thing is something explicit about Ukraine being fully submerged within the Russian sphere of influence, but then again sphere of influence shit tends to be implicit rather than explicit anyway.

The other stuff I can come up with that is missing is regime change/total puppet government stuff, or a slightly watered down version where Russia gets its man in as a powerful deputy. But even if Russia had romped to 'victory' in just a few days, the puppet government stuff always sounded like the least workable bit that would make long subsequent phases of resistance somewhat inevitable. And it was quite some time ago that we were told Russia had conceded that they werent going to demand this bit and that Zelensky could remain in place. Perhaps more should have been made of that at the time, I know we discussed it here but then things quickly moved on.

My conclusion for now is that if a deal was struck that featured the same detail as mentioned in that Simpson article, and subsequent reporting of it took the same lines and tones as Simpson did there, then the articles themselves would very much be part of face saving on the Ukrainian side. The extent to which it could genuinely be seen only as a face saving thing for Russia rather than featuring most of what they wanted would come down to the details of the demilitarisation, territorial concessions, and anything else that Russia really wanted from this invasion that I havent managed to think of yet.

One aspect of the 'sphere of influence' aim of Russia in regards Ukraine that I'm interested in is the extent to which Russia would actually want Ukraine to retain certain ties to the rest of Europe. Its easy to think about that stuff in very crude terms akin to a new and non-porous iron curtain, but when I was recalling the 'grand chessboard' Brzezinski stuff of the 1990s which cast Ukraine as a major prize, the idea was that without Ukraine, Russia ceased to be a 'Eurasian empire'. Isnt the point of being an empire that straddles two continents that you actually make full use of the bit thats it Europe, rather than cutting it off from the rest of Europe? So I suppose I have to think about whether Russia would actually want to disconnect Ukraine from the European sphere on every front, or whether actually having heavy influence over Ukraine is of more value to them if they make use of it as a 'gateway to the rest of Europe' rather than as a simplistic iron curtain rail. But I wont get too carried away with this sort of thinking because this is the sort of area which could be spun to save face for Russia if they dont actually get everything they want.
 
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Not saying you're wrong. Its easy to get over confident cos of the pro-Ukrainian propaganda and you've been providing a valuable "woah there" . However - I think after 3 weeks in Id say the stories of russia having major - possibly critical - difficulties have turned out to be pretty reliable.

I can still only go as far as to say that Russias difficulties have enhanced that narrative, rather than having cruelly killed it off. Russia has failed to crush the hope that they will not win, has given fresh life to the possibility that Ukraine may prevail. Which is as good a news as we could possibly have hoped for at this stage. Every day that remains the case is a day I am pleased to see, also offering the prospect that a deal may be done.
 
I think Belarus may be a more likely place for an organised uprising - it’s been attempted in very recent times and there is some resistance to playing Putin’s game already - troops refusing to mobilise, Russian supply trains being disrupted. They haven’t had the social media crackdown yet as in Russia proper, platforms like TikTok still widely used and anti-war stuff circulating there. If I were looking to influence/support opposition groups then this would be a better shot than Russia. It’s also where ballistic missiles are being launched at Kyiv, so valuable if it can be taken out of play (though Russian troops are unlikely to go home without a fight). It’d piss Putin off if the invasion of Ukraine ended with losing a puppet state rather than gaining one.

I don’t know if there is strong kinship between Ukraine and Belarus, or if stronger links are with Russia. Wikipedia tells me that Russian is the mother tongue for 70% of the population, and most trade is with Russia, so I guess historically it’s been the latter. Maybe steeplejack can elaborate on this a bit?

oof, a very complicated question.

It's still too early to tell I think if Belarus offers a "likelier" route to a popular uprising. The implications of 24th February (and the Belarusian constiutional referendum of 27 February, which removed Belarus' neutrality and permitted the storage of nuclear weapons on Belarusian territory) will take a time to make themselves felt.

On the Belarusian military, it is rumoured that some senior military officials are fundamentally opposed to Belarusian participation in the war, beyond the logisitical support being offered already. It is rumoured that Belarusian units have refused to saddle up and go to the front- the last suggestion I saw being that Russian officers would take command of Belarusian regiments. There's been a lot of hyperventilation this week about the possible deployment of Belarusian paratroopers from Brest (nothing has happened yet), and some heavy explosions in the south of Belarus two nights ago, which even led to a brief (false) rumour that a coup against the regime was underway. There have been many false twitter posts about Belarus entering the war (it hasn't) and Ukrainians or Russians staging false flag attacks to try and provoke / drag Belarus in (all bollocks thus far).

The big question now is how much control Lukashenko has over the Belarusian military (my guess is, his is not the final decision anymore). There's a sense in which he's now a regional governor of an autonomous province, much like Kadyrov is in Chechnya. On that topic, Russian / Chechen military police are now rumoured to be quite active in the militarised south,.with civilians drivers being issued with fines by them for motoring offences.

Yes, the Belarusians were coy on recognising the absurd LPR and DPR, and haven't yet done so, but there is a sense that Lukashenko all of a sudden is not so important. His job is to maintain the repression of the Belarusian citizens which unfortunately he and his various security formations- KGB, GUBOPIK, OMON- are very effective at. A schooltecher in Babryusk was arrested and jailed shortly after the invasion for wearing yellow and blue ribbons in her hair- denounced by a colleague to OMON, who came and arrested her in the middle of a class. Lukashenko is also useful "meat in the room" when Putin is attempting to demonstrate the support of friendly governments for his actions (see the "nuclear drills" the Saturday before the invasion started).

Belarus certainly is a big hospital for the Russian army's wounded and morgue for its dead. Cities such as Mazyr and Babryusk, to a lesser extent Gomel, are now major transit points for Russian casualites, on the way back to Russia. The Russian presence is also felt on the rental market for properties, in smaller cities such as Luninets and Baranovichi which have major air / missile facilities and will be prime targets if Belarus does enter the war formally.

In terms of kinship, it's an impossibly entangled question and not really whether Belarus or Ukraine is closer to Russia. For the average Russian, I think Ukraine is of much more significance- particulalrly Kyiv. Belarus by contrast is seen more as potato country. However both countries are very closely entwined with not only Russian identity and sense of self, but how it wants to be seen in future. The long history of Kievan Rus', the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the disasters of Napoleon, the Russian Civil War, Barbarossa, all engulf these countries and bind them into a common narrative. The role of the various churches on the territories of the three countries are also of vital importance even if chronicling histories of religious obscurantism is not really my bag. I hear that the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church is coming under pressure from the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope to make a staement condemining the warf, but refuses to do so.

Both Belarus and Ukraine are integral to the imperialist "Russky Mir" vision of Putin and his deranged far-right courtiers. It's pretty clear Ukraine won't be part of Russki Mir anytime soon. Sadly Belarus has already been lost, both to dictatorship and Russian occupation, with both Western sanctions (nice optics but as full of holes as a Swiss cheese) and democratic blandishments proving of little substance. Menawhile Tikhanovskaya is attempting to distinguish between the regime and the Belarusian people, and ally her pro-democracy struggle with that of the resistance ot Russian aggression by Ukraine. Belarusians, senior regime circles and self-serving catchfart functionaries apart, are fundamentally opposed to the war- around 90% opposed in my view.

The only way to get rid of Lukashenko (and a big chance was missed in August 2020 with the benefit of hindsight) is through armed uprising. But what then would the reaction be of the Russian occupiers? Timing as always is an impossible question- whether to do it now, as a shock, or to wait until the Russian military is further degraded through staggering losses of men and material in Ukraine. And if the Russian military seems hollowed out by corruption, shoddily organised in terms of logistics, and of very low morale, why would they put down a popular uprising in Belarus? The answer is perhaps twofold; the Belarusian army is not an army like in a coup elsewhere in the Global South, willing to switch sides for political influence or money; secondly, a deep-seated, visceral fear of civil war. An armed uprising is fraught with danger and risks for those perpetrating it but still is necessary if people want democratic change- which they do.

Whether it comes or not, whether there is any substance or not to rumours about the unhappiness of the military and their refusal to fight, only time will tell. Sorry for the Berchtesgadian monologue.

Here's a picture of an ordinary day in Luninets from this week. :( More optimistically, one of many guerrilla anti-war posters in Minsk.

274963824_662002585056310_4534848380452308590_n.jpg275181563_492737472522076_8809447100315287696_n.jpg
 
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That sounds a bit fanciful - people have got wise to misinformation on social media?
More things like social media companies have become better at clearly showing sources, and labeling misinformation. The public have got wise(er) to things like QANON. Facebook's influence is on the wain (as it's the social network for gen x, and boomers, and thus unattractive to younger people, because they tend to not want to hang out in the same spaces as their parents/grandparents). I'm not sure that mercenary psyops/information warfare companies like Cambridge Analytica have the same sort of high level access to things like analytics/microtargetting in TikToc as they did in Facebook for example.

That's before you get to the effective use of information by the US.
 
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that's a fascinating link and one which deserves a better description and summary than 'really nice web site / story with war status', perhaps something along the lines of 'very useful text and graphic guide from the ft involving maps, video and text analysing why the war has gone how it has, warning we're not hearing about difficulties the ukrainians have faced, and pointing out that russia is now starting to fight as they were expected to'
Indeed, an enlightening summary with depressing conclusion. This was interesting:

Ukraine’s defence has been aided by a complete overhaul of its military culture since 2014, from a Soviet-style top-down command to one where junior leaders are empowered to take decisions in the field, according to Liam Collins, a former US colonel.

as against Russia being almost completely top-down approach from Putin. I really hope that convoy is stuck and remains useless to the end of the war with front and rear vehicles destroyed and meaning the rest can't go anywhere. It makes Putin a laughing stock. Presumably Russia will want to add to any peace terms "and can we have our tanks back please".

The graphic designer in charge of that article, however, needs to be sacked. My eyes have only just recovered from the wall of black background making the text really difficult to read and the maps near fucking useless.
 
I'd add to this: we're all very aware of Russian misinformation and propaganda here, but we should remember it wouldn't be very clever for Ukraine to be putting out news saying that Russia was not experiencing any difficulties.

Zelensky needs to balance the need for stressing the suffering of civilians to encourage more aid and support from other countries with the need to keep up the morale of Ukrainian troops and civilians and causing Russians to question the wisdom of the invasion. Not doing so would be stupid.

Its a warzone. We shouldn't be too certain about any information coming from the front lines.

it seems like they desperately need aid yeah, and medical help. Just read some of that twitter thread teqniq linked to earlier, couldn't read it all 🙁 but it just highlights how much.
 
Indeed, an enlightening summary with depressing conclusion. This was interesting:



as against Russia being almost completely top-down approach from Putin. I really hope that convoy is stuck and remains useless to the end of the war with front and rear vehicles destroyed and meaning the rest can't go anywhere. It makes Putin a laughing stock. Presumably Russia will want to add to any peace terms "and can we have our tanks back please".

The graphic designer in charge of that article, however, needs to be sacked. My eyes have only just recovered from the wall of black background making the text really difficult to read and the maps near fucking useless.
1) i suspect that the russians will have to give their unit commanders more autonomy;
2) i found the maps ok, but thanks for flagging that up as an issue other people may also have
 
You've got away with a lot here because of your regurgitating of Twitter and Facebook discussions of various subjects over the years making it look like you know stuff. And to be honest I've appreciated it as I don't have time to look at those threads as I have a full-time job. But when you start trying to add your own analysis you come unstuck I'm afraid. Keep it up by all means and I'll keep liking the factual posts but please don't pretend you know what you're on about. It's embarrassing.
He ‘gets away with it’ because a majority of posters on here like him and respect his opinions, even if not agreeing with all of them . Unlike others who perform the role of annoying comic relief.
 
You've got away with a lot here because of your regurgitating of Twitter and Facebook discussions of various subjects over the years making it look like you know stuff. And to be honest I've appreciated it as I don't have time to look at those threads as I have a full-time job. But when you start trying to add your own analysis you come unstuck I'm afraid. Keep it up by all means and I'll keep liking the factual posts but please don't pretend you know what you're on about. It's embarrassing.
he'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids
 
Indeed, an enlightening summary with depressing conclusion. This was interesting:



as against Russia being almost completely top-down approach from Putin. I really hope that convoy is stuck and remains useless to the end of the war with front and rear vehicles destroyed and meaning the rest can't go anywhere. It makes Putin a laughing stock. Presumably Russia will want to add to any peace terms "and can we have our tanks back please".

The graphic designer in charge of that article, however, needs to be sacked. My eyes have only just recovered from the wall of black background making the text really difficult to read and the maps near fucking useless.

Afaik the convoy was untangled a while ago. The lead elements have redeployed to form the positions north and west of Kyiv.
 
Is it only the Russian working class that will be hit then? Will dentists, doctors, lawyers, small business owners, and all the the other non-working class folk, be unaffected and think Putin's ace?
There is an element of that i.e. the working class being hit more. For example, conscription in Russia works in the way it does in many places, with opportunities for exemptions or to simply buy your way out of it.
 
The graphic designer in charge of that article, however, needs to be sacked. My eyes have only just recovered from the wall of black background making the text really difficult to read and the maps near fucking useless.

The Guardian has a similar timeline/map feature, but with a white background.

 
Not saying you're wrong. Its easy to get over confident cos of the pro-Ukrainian propaganda and you've been providing a valuable "woah there" . However - I think after 3 weeks in Id say the stories of russia having major - possibly critical - difficulties have turned out to be pretty reliable.

I'm not sure that's the case. Looking at what Putin said he wanted, no to Ukraine in NATO, recognition of Donestk and Luhansk, de-nazificaton and de-militarisation, he's already achieved the first and the second looks increasingly politically (and militarily) possible. De-nazifying is no doubt largely propaganda but could well mean taking out Azov and aligned networks which seems in hand looking at where the fiercest fighting has been taking place and de-militarisation is ongoing - it may be this is the reason he's been so frustrated about Western arms shipments which will only prolong this objective. I would imagine air defenses are high up the list, and may well give him the chance for a me-fly zone over Ukraine.

How far he gets with the last is really in the hands of fate and how many casualties he can stomach before it becomes politically problematic domestically, but he can pull out any time he wants and declare victory, leaving Ukraine severely weakened, NATO cowed and many of his objectives met. In addition there's been a few bonuses, like Belarus agreeing to host nuclear weapons, and a whole host of brand new laws he can use to silence dissent internally They're taking losses, it doesn't look to be going that well, sanctions will bite but there's no reason not to hang around smashing up Ukraine's military and civillian infrastucture for as long as he can get away with. Russia has never been scared of taking casualties, and the losses are all infantary, he's still got an air force and a navy largely untouched and that's the expensive stuff. This idea of an out of control madman, as well as being pretty offensive, doesn't seem to match the facts on the ground to me. And it does raise the question of whether the West tooling up Ukraine for perpetual war are really acting in Ukraine's interests or are intended to draw Putin into a long term military quagmire that will ultimately undermine both him and the Russian state in general.

I'm not saying the West shouldn't be arming Ukraine, I don't know really, and I don't think we should take anything Putin says at face value, but there is propaganda happening in all directions and even if he pulls troops out tomorrow this still looks like a situation that could be spun to increase his stranglehold on power rather than place him at risk of a coup or revolution which seems pretty optimistic to me. Unfortunately.
 
I'm not sure that's the case. Looking at what Putin said he wanted, no to Ukraine in NATO, recognition of Donestk and Luhansk, de-nazificaton and de-militarisation, he's already achieved the first and the second looks increasingly politically (and militarily) possible. De-nazifying is no doubt largely propaganda but could well mean taking out Azov and aligned networks which seems in hand looking at where the fiercest fighting has been taking place and de-militarisation is ongoing - it may be this is the reason he's been so frustrated about Western arms shipments which will only prolong this objective. I would imagine air defenses are high up the list, and may well give him the chance for a me-fly zone over Ukraine.

How far he gets with the last is really in the hands of fate and how many casualties he can stomach before it becomes politically problematic domestically, but he can pull out any time he wants and declare victory, leaving Ukraine severely weakened, NATO cowed and many of his objectives met. In addition there's been a few bonuses, like Belarus agreeing to host nuclear weapons, and a whole host of brand new laws he can use to silence dissent internally They're taking losses, it doesn't look to be going that well, sanctions will bite but there's no reason not to hang around smashing up Ukraine's military and civillian infrastucture for as long as he can get away with. Russia has never been scared of taking casualties, and the losses are all infantary, he's still got an air force and a navy largely untouched and that's the expensive stuff. This idea of an out of control madman, as well as being pretty offensive, doesn't seem to match the facts on the ground to me. And it does raise the question of whether the West tooling up Ukraine for perpetual war are really acting in Ukraine's interests or are intended to draw Putin into a long term military quagmire that will ultimately undermine both him and the Russian state in general.

I'm not saying the West shouldn't be arming Ukraine, I don't know really, and I don't think we should take anything Putin says at face value, but there is propaganda happening in all directions and even if he pulls troops out tomorrow this still looks like a situation that could be spun to increase his stranglehold on power rather than place him at risk of a coup or revolution which seems pretty optimistic to me. Unfortunately.
Even if this is true it is being perceived as a failure and Russia is perceived as weak internationally. Which is almost as big an issue as being weak.
 
You've got away with a lot here because of your regurgitating of Twitter and Facebook discussions of various subjects over the years making it look like you know stuff. And to be honest I've appreciated it as I don't have time to look at those threads as I have a full-time job. But when you start trying to add your own analysis you come unstuck I'm afraid. Keep it up by all means and I'll keep liking the factual posts but please don't pretend you know what you're on about. It's embarrassing.
Then don't be embarrassed. Simple.
 
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