Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[SpookyFrank]

Please don't encourage him to post a pic of his arse.

Putin's arse, more likely.

 

[WouldBe]

Ukraine may be struggling on land but they sunk a sub at Sevastopol yesterday.

 

[MrCurry]

I know I need to look further than BBC or Sky if I want to know what’s going on, but I’m intrigued by how this sub was sunk.

BBC news says “sunk in a missile attack” and Sky say nothing directly about how the sub was destroyed but end their article with a pointed reference to F-16s entering service with Ukraine this week. Is that intended to imply it was F-16s which launched the missiles the BBC referred to?

 

[StoneRoad]

I know I need to look further than BBC or Sky if I want to know what’s going on, but I’m intrigued by how this sub was sunk.

BBC news says “sunk in a missile attack” and Sky say nothing directly about how the sub was destroyed but end their article with a pointed reference to F-16s entering service with Ukraine this week. Is that intended to imply it was F-16s which launched the missiles the BBC referred to?

Various suggestions have been made in the western media as to the missile used to sink the Rostov-on-Don. Also attacked around the same time were S-400 missile batteries.

Note that back in September 2023, at least one "Storm Shadow" hit the sub while it was in dry dock. That probably shredded much of the interior and the explosion also ripped at least two holes through the pressure hull.
The sub has been on sea trials in the Sevastopol Bay in recent days after repairs from that attack, so it is not surprising that UKR had another go and claim they sank it this time.

So, ATCAMS / Storm Shadow / Neptune are all potential weapon choices. Unlikely that it was a sea drone like a magura.

It is possible that further information will be released ...
Personally, I'll go for a Storm Shadow as I don't think that the ATCAMS have enough explosives in the warhead.

 

[MrCurry]

Thanks, that would explain the lack of detail in the U.K. online news articles, as the Brits would not want to draw attention to their role.

 

[StoneRoad]

Thanks, that would explain the lack of detail in the U.K. online news articles, as the Brits would not want to draw attention to their role.

tbf UKR haven't said what they used, and France have also supplied some SCAULP missiles which are their version of the Storm Shadow design.
Other than supplying the hardware and some rules as to what can be targeted Britain is not involved operationally.

 

[nogojones]

I'm sure you'd have the inside track on that.

IIRC journalism is one of the professions considered off limits as cover for intelligence agents; the others being doctors and preachers.

I don't know about the CIA, but the British are quite happy doing it. Sandy Gall being a notable example.

 

[two sheds]

This looks interesting (spoilers to prevent automatic play/repetition), old Russian people saying how Russia didn't start anything in Ukraine:

Spoiler

with a comment of explanation from

To fully comprehend things like this, you need to understand how Russians view 'truth' and 'lies.'
The 'truth' is something you share with close family and friends and then, only rarely, when it really matters.

To everyone else, you just tell them what they want to hear, or what you think they want to hear. This is to people like the government and authority figures and your neighbors.

Lastly, you have the stuff you tell to outsiders. Plain, simple, bold lies. You lie to the outsiders and foreigners even if they know you're lying and you know that they know that you're lying. You parrot the lie that you're expected to say to avoid hard questions and you lie the big lies because the truth makes you uncomfortable and makes you look bad.

You pretend to tell the truth and they pretend to believe you.

But, make no mistake about it, no Russian will ever tell an outsider what they truly believe and feel.
In this example, in the video, you have an old Russian parroting the government lie that the US started it. She may or may not believe it, but she'll never tell an outsider what she truly believes. In telling the big lie, she protects herself from the government and she protects her own dignity by not owning up to a shameful truth.

This is what it means to be Russian.

 

[inva]

This looks interesting (spoilers to prevent automatic play/repetition), old Russian people saying how Russia didn't start anything in Ukraine:

Spoiler

with a comment of explanation from

Sounds like bigoted shit to me.

 

[two sheds]

You think? Seems logical if you're in an authoritarian regime that could imprison you for expressing an opinion that goes against regime policy. I thought there were echoes of Russian underground sense of humour over the years, too.

I was going to add that there could be similar interviews with old American or British people regarding our countries' history (somewhat different reasons though).

 

[two sheds]

I read a while ago about how people in the deep south of the US learned to disguise their views to outsiders because they were heavily punished by the Unionists for expressing contrary opinions. Seems similar sort of reaction.

 

[inva]

You think? Seems logical if you're in an authoritarian regime that could imprison you for expressing an opinion that goes against regime policy. I thought there were echoes of Russian underground sense of humour over the years, too.

I was going to add that there could be similar interviews with old American or British people regarding our countries' history.

They go well beyond a comment on state repression though. Like you say there are Russians who speak out against the government. Some are now dead or imprisoned for their bravery so whoever this Reddit twat is stating 'no Russian' will do so is an insulting lie. In any case though we are talking about a massive country with over about 150 million people in it, do you really believe these sweeping generalisations about what it means to be Russian?

 

[two sheds]

Yes fair play, although wherever someone is in Russia they're likely to get the same punishment if they speak out against Putin.

 

[teuchter]

Yes fair play, although wherever someone is in Russia they're likely to get the same punishment if they speak out against Putin.

The silly Reddit comment makes it out that it's intrinsically "Russian" not to speak out, rather than a consequence of living under an authoritarian regime.

It's not the first time we've seen this kind of generalisation about Russian culture.

 

[two sheds]

I checked some of the comments and a couple did remark that the poster seems to claim that he's spoken to all Russians. There was also this though, which makes it clear what it's in response to:

Why Lying Has Become a National Pastime

When I first arrived in Moscow, I soon learned that if I asked if something could be done and I received the answer, "OK, no problem," that did not mean I could expect for the deed to be accomplished.

www.themoscowtimes.com

eta a few paragraphs:

When I first arrived in Moscow, I soon learned that if I asked if something could be done and I received the answer, "OK, no problem," that did not mean I could expect for the deed to be accomplished. Many times when I left for the United States and had paid for various tasks to be done by the time I returned in two months, I came back to a job that was either done incorrectly or not at all. In fact, several times the other person acted as though our conversation concerning the job had never taken place.

I found lies were more acceptable than admitting a lack of knowledge about how to do what I had requested. Or they had overcommitted and rather than telling me that they would not be able to accomplish my request, they simply procrastinated and kept insisting that the job was "almost done," when in fact, it had not even been started.

When speaking with Russian friends about my frustration in such situations, they laughed and said, "That's normal here!"

Many Russians lie on a regular basis. They lie even when they don't have to lie. It is a national pastime. It can proceed from the small "white lie" of a family member to one of major proportions from a government official. But often, most Russians are not deceived and know when a statement is a falsehood.

So why do they tolerate this phenomenon?

Not telling the truth was reinforced by a Soviet system that lied consistently to their people. The government instilled great fear in its citizenry with nonstop propaganda about enemies who they perceived were everywhere — within and without the country. The Soviet system lied to manipulate, maintain control and create fear and submission. The government could not admit any flaws, and if errors occurred they were instantly denied because they would reveal intolerable weaknesses.

During Soviet times, people often lied just to stay alive. If a parent or spouse was arrested and declared an enemy of the state, the remaining family members often changed their names and lied to obtain false documents to obtain food, a place to live, education or a job. Lying became a standard means of survival to protect oneself or a loved one. I have heard many stories of what people did to stay alive during times of famine or war. Ethics often were discarded while starving or watching a child die.

 

[kabbes]

People saying they’ll do something and then not doing it (or not doing it properly) is hardly a uniquely Russian phenomenon.

 

[two sheds]

Indeed, she does expand a bit though.

 

[ska invita]

I checked some of the comments and a couple did remark that the poster seems to claim that he's spoken to all Russians. There was also this though, which makes it clear what it's in response to:

Why Lying Has Become a National Pastime

When I first arrived in Moscow, I soon learned that if I asked if something could be done and I received the answer, "OK, no problem," that did not mean I could expect for the deed to be accomplished.

www.themoscowtimes.com

eta a few paragraphs:

soon come
reminiscent of this

WHY DO BRITISH PEOPLE LIE SO MUCH!!??

The silly Reddit comment makes it out that it's intrinsically "Russian" not to speak out, rather than a consequence of living under an authoritarian regime.

back to back regimes even

 

[The39thStep]

People saying they’ll do something and then not doing it (or not doing it properly) is hardly a uniquely Russian phenomenon.

Your call is very important to us. Please wait

 

[Kris Silver]

This looks interesting (spoilers to prevent automatic play/repetition), old Russian people saying how Russia didn't start anything in Ukraine:

Spoiler

with a comment of explanation from

It's difficult to defend Russians and say don't judge a majority of them, or distrust a majority of them.

But a country under such propaganda, obviously there's some that have different views.

But in all honesty I couldn't easily trust the ethics and judgements of a Russian, or tell others to do so. It's going to be more likely than not, that they have some pretty bad views and takes on world affairs.

That's one warped mentality that's taken decades to do to its people.

Listing countries as disliking them, when they've done nothing wrong.

If someone broke into your house, attacked you, threw you out and killed one of your relatives.

Would they be the mean ones for not liking you?

 

[WouldBe]

Maybe Ukraine aren't doing so bad on land after all. They have invaded Russia and rolled 6 miles over the border.

 

[spitfire]

Maybe Ukraine aren't doing so bad on land after all. They have invaded Russia and rolled 6 miles over the border.

They're on their way to Moscow to start negotiations.

 

[tim]

I checked some of the comments and a couple did remark that the poster seems to claim that he's spoken to all Russians. There was also this though, which makes it clear what it's in response to:

Why Lying Has Become a National Pastime

When I first arrived in Moscow, I soon learned that if I asked if something could be done and I received the answer, "OK, no problem," that did not mean I could expect for the deed to be accomplished.

www.themoscowtimes.com

eta a few paragraphs:

If this is a true reflection on cultrural differences between the USA and Russia, the UK is closer to the latter than the former.

 

[tim]

The silly Reddit comment makes it out that it's intrinsically "Russian" not to speak out, rather than a consequence of living under an authoritarian regime.

It's not the first time we've seen this kind of generalisation about Russian culture.

Few of the Russians I encounter have any problems speaking out. The one currently sitting opposite me, as I kill time posting shit on the interweb is writing an opinion essay. I will be left in no doubt on their views of the relative merits of studying history and other humanities versus STEM subjects.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Another hostage being taken: Russia seeks 15-year sentence for US-Russian ballerina Ksenia Karelina

Russian-American ballerina Ksenia Karelina has pleaded guilty to treason charges after she was arrested for donating money to a charity supporting Ukraine.

Russian prosecutors are seeking a 15-year sentence after the security services accused Ms Karelina of collecting money that was used to purchase tactical supplies for the Ukrainian army.

She was detained by authorities in Yekaterinburg, about 1,600km (1,000 miles) east of Moscow after a family visit in February.

It has been widely reported that investigators brought the treason charge against her after discovering she had donated around $50 (£39) to Razom, a charity that supports Ukraine.

 

[ska invita]

such cunts

 

[editor]

After years of blowing up homes, schools and hospitals, destroying cities. kidnapping children and targeting civilians, Putin has the fucking gall to call Ukraine's rare cross-border attack a "major provocation."

The hypocritical, lying, piece of shit war criminal that he is.

Putin accuses Ukraine of 'provocation' amid alleged border incursion

Fighting has been taking place since Tuesday, with footage showing smoke rising in some areas.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[likesfish]

authoritarian society's breed weird ideas when the mildest cricitism can get you jailed and you never know which of your neighbours is an informer for the state either paid,forced or genuinie believes they are doing the right thing!.

You literally aren't allowed to say some things and you will be dragged off in the middle of the night or worse!

 

[tim]

Another hostage being taken: Russia seeks 15-year sentence for US-Russian ballerina Ksenia Karelina

Three times as long as you'd get in Britain for joining to a Zoom meeting about the M25

 

[Chz]

After years of blowing up homes, schools and hospitals, destroying cities. kidnapping children and targeting civilians, Putin has the fucking gall to call Ukraine's rare cross-border attack a "major provocation."

The hypocritical, lying, piece of shit war criminal that he is.

Putin accuses Ukraine of 'provocation' amid alleged border incursion

Fighting has been taking place since Tuesday, with footage showing smoke rising in some areas.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's the problem when you're already bombing hospitals. "Major provocation". Like what the fuck else is he going to do to Ukraine? They've already used everything in the arsenal bar chemical/biological/nuclear weapons, and Putin needs enough adoration that he can't take the entire world cutting them off for that. He'd lose all his adoring fans.