Transport for London abandons the phrase, 'ladies and gentlemen'

[Sea Star]

I don't really view ladies and gentleman as some evil patriarchal thing though. I really don't see what's so offensive about being addressed as a gentleman or a lady, I have very, very rarely encountered anyone in my life who is genuinely offended being called a lady or a gentleman. Granted it's old fashioned but offensive? Sign of the times though I guess.

You've thrown too many acronyms at me now to fully understand who's for or against. In fact you've thrown so many you've repeated yourself haven't you? Isn't the T in LGBT meant to stand for trans? You said LGBT and trans people, anyway I thought it was LGBTQ now? I saw a particularly long version of it the other day, god knows what it all means. I do wonder if the people you've spoken to have said they're all for it in front of you because you've transitioned, whereas in other company they either shrug their shoulders, roll their eyes a bit or both? Not saying that to be a dick I'm just wondering.

I do generally fall into the category of don't really care but I do find myself eyerolling a bit sometimes at all this. I just wonder where it all leads. Just saying hello person strikes me as dull and homogenous. I quite like it when a woman calls me luv, sweetheart, darling etc. I don't really do it back much but sometimes, part n parcel of where I work really. I think the whole just doing it subtly is the way forward because it would hardly have been noticed by most people.

why does everyone think it's about being offended. People aren;t offended. It's just no longer relevant for most of us.

The way this sort of language works is that it acts subconsciously and insidiously. Whether you see it as associated with patriarchy is irrelevent, lot's of people do.

My Twitter timeline is still working overtime - so far about 500 interactions with my Tweet about this. Only two women objected and neither was directly about the announcements, both were sly attacks on my gender identity, and all the negative comments about my Tweet have been men, very much men and very much identifying as men, cis, & straight.

You'd think that something like this wouldn't matter but from the reactions I'm getting it very much does matter - to nearly everyone.


When I used LGBT I meant the LGBT movement which is largely run by cis people, not trans people. I could have said LGB or LGB+ it doesn't really matter. But when I say LGBT+ I'm basically talking about what used to be called the gay community but now, ostensibly represents all the other identities.

eta - i just noticed i wrote "quite a few in LGBT+ other than trans people" in order to make it clear there.

I'll assume you weren't trying to be a dick but only because you said so. I find people don't hold back in telling me what they think about trans, especially online, and not often to my face; but no it was way more nuanced than that. I do work in offices which is getting on for 50% female (out in operational areas where the gender balance is tilted more towards 95% men then it might be a different story - but even there you would get a mixed view, and plenty of men on the operational side support this. Union people often support this because they speak to their female colleagues about feminism from time to time - and we have a male allies group too) and I can hear conversations I'm not involved with, not everyone knows I'm trans, on twitter people are very honest indeed with what they think whether they know I'm trans or not. This is not about trans people. This is being driven by the women's staff network way stronger than it is being driven by the LGBT staff network (barely representative of trans people btw).

people saying "luv, sweetheart, darling" is nothing to do with this. Not sure why you mention it. TfL aren't trying to stop people being friendly.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I love it when people genuinely greet me saying love/sweetheart/darling

Be they friends, colleagues, people in retail or other such transactions

I also really applaud TFL both slowly changing anouncemments over time AND using their position to publicise it.

The individual greetings and endearments stand by themselves and are nuanced to what is acceptable and welcome in different situations. If I don't like it I can call it out if it's based on putting me down rather than welcoming me.

Official anouncemments are different and carry more authority and are not nuanced to individual s so they should be as inclusive as possible.


It reminds me, it's been tempting at work to address people as "ladies" at times when I have had all female students .

We had a speaker recently about this who suggested other ways to addressed a large group in order to make our language inclusive. And I have changed what I do. Especially as I am role modelling how my students might go out and talk when they are professionals

It wouldn't stop me calling some one lady if that seemed the right thing to do in an individual scenario

 

[Sea Star]

It reminds me, it's been tempting at work to address people as "ladies" at times when I have had all female students .

We had a speaker recently about this who suggested other ways to addressed a large group in order to make our language inclusive. And I have changed what I do. Especially as I am role modelling how my students might go out and talk when they are professionals

It wouldn't stop me calling some one lady if that seemed the right thing to do in an individual scenario

This is where I am discriminated against by omission. there's a guy in my team who doesn't hesitate to address the rest of the team as "ladies" except when I'm part of the group and then he uses "guys". He might not even realise that he does it. But I do. And he's the colleague who in the past persistently misgendered and outed me so i know he has an issue. The other day when he was trying to compliment me he called me a "person" where I know full well he'd have used "woman" if he believed it.


also - where, maybe luv isn't so welcome - literally just received this.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What I don't get is this - doesn't "ladies and gentlemen" cover all bases? I know there are some people born with both genitalia, but surely that's a miniscule percentage of the population, and don't they normally identify one way or the other anyway? Seems like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

yes exactly
luv can be used to connect or put down but I want to be able to choose that for myself, and I can

Looking back on my language at work, I am really glad we had that discussion in work as I hadn't considered the wider implications of it, I'm sorry to say. My programme leader has been pushing on this point for the last few years challenging students views. She said that three years ago they were very resistant to thinking about the need to change and then when she got a speaker in this year about trans awareness, students were really engaged and interested and receptive to change

 

[Crispy]

What I don't get is this - doesn't "ladies and gentlemen" cover all bases? I know there are some people born with both genitalia, but surely that's a miniscule percentage of the population, and don't they normally identify one way or the other anyway? Seems like a solution looking for a problem.

You're confusing sex with gender. Gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality.

eg: "Doesn't "Gay or Straight" cover all bases?"

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You're confusing sex with gender. Gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality.

eg: "Doesn't "Gay or Straight" cover all bases?"

How is gender a spectrum?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And how is sexuality a spectrum? Surely you either fancy men women or both? That's not really a spectrum.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

why does everyone think it's about being offended. People aren;t offended. It's just no longer relevant for most of us.

The way this sort of language works is that it acts subconsciously and insidiously. Whether you see it as associated with patriarchy is irrelevent, lot's of people do.

My Twitter timeline is still working overtime - so far about 500 interactions with my Tweet about this. Only two women objected and neither was directly about the announcements, both were sly attacks on my gender identity, and all the negative comments about my Tweet have been men, very much men and very much identifying as men, cis, & straight.

You'd think that something like this wouldn't matter but from the reactions I'm getting it very much does matter - to nearly everyone.


When I used LGBT I meant the LGBT movement which is largely run by cis people, not trans people. I could have said LGB or LGB+ it doesn't really matter. But when I say LGBT+ I'm basically talking about what used to be called the gay community but now, ostensibly represents all the other identities.

eta - i just noticed i wrote "quite a few in LGBT+ other than trans people" in order to make it clear there.

I'll assume you weren't trying to be a dick but only because you said so. I find people don't hold back in telling me what they think about trans, especially online, and not often to my face; but no it was way more nuanced than that. I do work in offices which is getting on for 50% female (out in operational areas where the gender balance is tilted more towards 95% men then it might be a different story - but even there you would get a mixed view, and plenty of men on the operational side support this. Union people often support this because they speak to their female colleagues about feminism from time to time - and we have a male allies group too) and I can hear conversations I'm not involved with, not everyone knows I'm trans, on twitter people are very honest indeed with what they think whether they know I'm trans or not. This is not about trans people. This is being driven by the women's staff network way stronger than it is being driven by the LGBT staff network (barely representative of trans people btw).

people saying "luv, sweetheart, darling" is nothing to do with this. Not sure why you mention it. TfL aren't trying to stop people being friendly.

I think lots of, frankly, right on feminists associate it with patriarchy. The majority of the population just see it as a way of addressing a large group of people. I think it's a pleasant way of addressing people too. I take the point it's kinda dated but I just think in an age of 'ooh let's show how diverse we are' type oneupmanship, certain nice, seemingly harmless traditions can get sacrificed for not really a good enough reason, IMO anyway.

I honestly think it matters because a big deal has been made of it. This sort of the thing leaves me confused because if we're trying tio make gender no longer a big deal then why make a big deal of something like this? Just don't say ladies and gentleman in future updates, job done.

I mention the luv, sweetheart etc because plenty of feminists have indicated that as being patronising. What confuses me is why's that ok but the seemingly standard 'ladies & gentleman' becomes a 'yeah, let's smash the patriarchy' argument?

Again, I'm not really for or against it just elicits the 'ah come on, really? Do we have to? Doesit really matter all that much? Oh alright if it means that much to you '
s

 

[Teaboy]

What I don't get is this - doesn't "ladies and gentlemen" cover all bases? I know there are some people born with both genitalia, but surely that's a miniscule percentage of the population, and don't they normally identify one way or the other anyway? Seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Ladies and gentleman is a pretty loaded statement anyway. My girlfriend hates the word lady.

 

[bimble]

.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Ladies and gentleman is a pretty loaded statement anyway. My girlfriend hates the word lady.

Loaded when used in certain contexts, I can see that. But if that's such an issue, why stop using it in one of the contexts in which it is quite clearly not loaded? That makes no sense.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

How is gender a spectrum?

It certainly is a spectrum. I think there's pretty good evidence to suggest it is anyway. It's why there's, to put it crudely, some women are more masculine acting than feminine and some men are more feminine acting than men. Again, this is a very crude outlining but it is a spectrum.

 

[Crispy]

And how is sexuality a spectrum? Surely you either fancy men women or both? That's not really a spectrum.

I know plenty of "straight" people who've had the odd same-sex fling. I know some commitedly "bi" people who swing equally both ways. It's a spectrum.

How is gender a spectrum?

Sex is the nature of your reproductive organs. It's not strictly binary, but there are pretty clearly defined biological categories.
Gender is a social construct. "Masculinity" and "Femininity" have little to no basis in biology and people should be free to identify with as much from either extreme as they wish, without being forced into a category.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It certainly is a spectrum. I think there's pretty good evidence to suggest it is anyway. It's why there's, to put it crudely, some women are more masculine acting than feminine and some men are more feminine acting than men. Again, this is a very crude outlining but it is a spectrum.

Isn't that just called individuality?

 

[Crispy]

Isn't that just called individuality?

Does it matter what you call it?

why stop using it in one of the contexts in which it is quite clearly not loaded? That makes no sense.

The change is minor, costs nothing, hurts nobody and might make some people feel more welcome and included.

 

[Teaboy]

Loaded when used in certain contexts, I can see that. But if that's such an issue, why stop using it in one of the contexts in which it is quite clearly not loaded? That makes no sense.

No lady is a loaded word. It is a concept. The only context I can think of is if you're introducing people at a society soiree. Every other context, nah.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Isn't that just called individuality?

Well, yeah but identity politics has created lots more categories in order to prevent people from being too... err... rigidly put into... err... categories.

 

[inva]

jesus christ

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Does it matter what you call it?

I think this covers it best. It's the obsession with rigidity, showing how right on you are, picking people up on the smallest of infractions and so on, is what drives plenty of people up the wall. I think that's pretty harmful to everyone. No one has really done any of that on this thread, I should point out.

 

[Teaboy]

Interestingly (or perhaps not) whilst we're on the subject of the phrase 'ladies and gentleman' I found out the other day that Royal Navy officers cannot be addressed as 'gentleman'. Apparently after some sort of failed mutiny many years ago they were stripped of their position as gentleman.

So if you ever find yourself addressing a room with a naval officer in the correct address is not gentleman but officer.

I guess all this goes to show just how old, outdated and unfit for purpose this stupid phrase is really.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I know plenty of "straight" people who've had the odd same-sex fling. I know some commitedly "bi" people who swing equally both ways. It's a spectrum.

If someone swings both ways as you put it, aren't they just bisexual? Either you swing both ways or you don't? Why the need for an endless expansion of categories?

Sex is the nature of your reproductive organs. It's not strictly binary, but there are pretty clearly defined biological categories.
Gender is a social construct. "Masculinity" and "Femininity" have little to no basis in biology and people should be free to identify with as much from either extreme as they wish, without being forced into a category.

What do you mean masculinity and femininity have a basis in biology? I don't get it. All the features associated with masculinity and feminity arise from levels of different hormones, don't they? Anyway, doesn't the term 'ladies and gentlemen' refer to sex?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

jesus christ

Definitely gender fluid I think.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well, yeah but identity politics has created lots more categories in order to prevent people from being too... err... rigidly put into... err... categories.

I like categories. They make the world predictable.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No lady is a loaded word. It is a concept. The only context I can think of is if you're introducing people at a society soiree. Every other context, nah.

Why is it ok there then?

 

[Crispy]

If someone swings both ways as you put it, aren't they just bisexual? Either you swing both ways or you don't? Why the need for an endless expansion of categories?

There shouldn't be any. People are people and they do things. Some people do some things more than other people and that's cool.

What do you mean masculinity and femininity have a basis in biology? I don't get it. All the features associated with masculinity and feminity arise from levels of different hormones, don't they?

Hormones some, cultural influences some. The causes are not particularly important; what's important is that the effects are varied.

Anyway, doesn't the term 'ladies and gentlemen' refer to sex?

Does it?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I like categories. They make the world predictable.

Sure, but when it grows into this and keeps on growing then I don't think they're very useful at all.

 

[Sea Star]

Isn't that just called individuality?

Gender is more than that otherwise I and many thousands of others wouldn't have felt the need to transition. That said, this is straying into areas that I don't feel particularly comfortable talking about on urban 75, but just wanted to say that.
There is gender identity which id say for most of us is fixed and not a choice, no matter what you try to do, it's there, beyond our direct control. And then there's gender expression which is down to choice and individuality. So some women express themselves in a masculine way, and some men are feminine way. And everything in between. Expression is definitely a spectrum. I see gender identity as being like a dumb bell shape with most people in one or other end but with smaller numbers scattered about in a 3d space around, between and outside of the two main binary identities. I'm a woman. I'm fairly, though not very, feminine. But that said feminine is only what people have traditionally believed to be feminine and even this is unravelling now.

 

[crossthebreeze]

This is a tear jerker....

Mind The Gap Tells The True Tale Of A Beloved Tube Announcer

Thats lovely! I went through a stage when I was a little kid of being a bit obsessed by recorded announcements and Mind The Gap was always my favourite!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

There shouldn't be any. People are people and they do things. Some people do some things more than other people and that's cool.

What do you mean there "shouldn't" be any. There are, and that's just the way it is. Either you like bonking exclusively one sex or both. That really does exhaust the possibilities. Whatever floats a person's boat is cool with me too.

Hormones some, cultural effects some. The causes are not particularly important; what's important is that the effects are varied.

Is it important though?

Does it?

Well that's what I thought, yes.