Transport for London abandons the phrase, 'ladies and gentlemen'

[ItWillNeverWork]

Gender is more than that otherwise I and many thousands of others wouldn't have felt the need to transition. That said, this is straying into areas that I don't feel particularly comfortable talking about on urban 75, but just wanted to say that.
There is gender identity which id say for most of us is fixed and not a choice, no matter what you try to do, it's there, beyond our direct control. And then there's gender expression which is down to choice and individuality. So some women express themselves in a masculine way, and some men are feminine way. And everything in between. Expression is definitely a spectrum. I see gender identity as being like a dumb bell shape with most people in one or other end but with smaller numbers scattered about in a 3d space around, between and outside of the two main binary identities. I'm a woman. I'm fairly, though not very, feminine. But that said feminine is only what people have traditionally believed to be feminine and even this is unravelling now.

I don't want to push you into talking about it if you don't feel comfortable, so just tell me to get lost if you think I'm prying too much. I do have a number of questions though if you don't mind. Like I say, I don't want to pry. I just find the whole thing baffling.

 

[bimble]

Either you like bonking exclusively one sex or both. That really does exhaust the possibilities.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You're going to have to explain that one.

 

[Crispy]

You're going to have to explain that one.

Surely you can understand that the extent to which one is "bi" can be variable. I'm "straight" but I snogged a man once. That doesn't make me equivalent to a "gay" man who snogged a woman once.

 

[bimble]

You're going to have to explain that one.

Nah, sorry, i really can't be arsed tbh not today.
If you're happy thinking that 'bonking' people of exclusively one sex or both = the totality of human sexuality that's fine by me, I just find it a bit sad.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Surely you can understand that the extent to which one is "bi" can be variable. I'm "straight" but I snogged a man once. That doesn't make me equivalent to a "gay" man who snogged a woman once.

If you are attracted to both men and women doesn't that just make you bisexual?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Nah, sorry, i really can't be arsed tbh not today.
If you're happy thinking that 'bonking' people of exclusively one sex or both = the totality of human sexuality that's fine by me, I just find it sad.

I'm sorry I wasted your precious time.

 

[Teaboy]

Why is it ok there then?

Because it forms part of their official title. As in May I introduce Lord Strange-stain and Lady Octavia Moistmouse

 

[crossthebreeze]

 

[ElizabethofYork]

"Masculinity" and "Femininity" have little to no basis in biology ...

Really?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Because it forms part of their official title. As in May I introduce Lord Strange-stain and Lady Octavia Moistmouse

Why is it ok it forms part of their official title?

 

[Gromit]

Really?

Not really. They are discounting the bio chemistry of biology. Testosterone and oestrogen.

Even those who transition must recognise the part these play as they often artificially increase one or the other using science to trick nature.

 

[Crispy]

Yeah I pushed that one too far, apologies.

 

[Teaboy]

Why is it ok it forms part of their official title?

Because they want to be addressed as such and you are aware of the situation. A lot of women do not wish to be called or described as a lady. My girlfriend for example is a 6ft tall rower, she is also a neuroscientist. She absolutely balks at the idea as being bracketed as a 'lady'.

Mate, I'm trying to help you out here in understanding a world which seems to have passed you by. Are you actually trying to learn or just being willfully ignorant. Serious question.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Because they want to be addressed as such and you are aware of the situation. A lot of women do not wish to be called or described as a lady. My girlfriend for example is a 6ft tall rower, she is also a neuroscientist. She absolutely balks at the idea as being bracketed as a 'lady'.

Mate, I'm trying to help you out here in understanding a world which seems to have passed you by. Are you actually trying to learn or just being willfully ignorant. Serious question.

My questioning is because I don't trust the motivations for this change. I don't believe anyone was asking for it other than those wanting to gain a bit of political power by fucking with the language. Sociology professors and HR types.

Very clearly, the term "ladies and gentlemen" over a tannoy does not have the same connotation as going "alright ladeeez" to a group of women on a night out. To pretend otherwise is just disingenuous bullshit.

 

[Sea Star]

Even those who transition must recognise the part these play as they often artificially increase one or the other using science to trick nature.

Oh there's a good one ... science and nature different things? Pick that one apart!

 

[Sea Star]

I don't want to push you into talking about it if you don't feel comfortable, so just tell me to get lost if you think I'm prying too much. I do have a number of questions though if you don't mind. Like I say, I don't want to pry. I just find the whole thing baffling.

if you have genuine questions then feel free to PM me. If I think I can offer an answer I'll do my best.

 

[Sea Star]

Ladies and gentleman is a pretty loaded statement anyway. My girlfriend hates the word lady.

i have issues with it, being a trans woman. However, I notice that it does get used at work a fair amount, by women, so I'm going with it to an extent, but I much prefer woman/ women.

 

[Teaboy]

Very clearly, the term "ladies and gentlemen" over a tannoy does not have the same connotation as going "alright ladeeez" to a group of women on a night out. To pretend otherwise is just disingenuous bullshit.

Just bizarre, who is pretending that? I don't even know why you've brought that up.

OK, we'll have one last go. The phrase comes from ages ago where there was a clear distinction between a man who was a gentleman and a man who wasn't. It was a way of defining class and excluding the wrong class. You and me being the wrong class of course.

Lady is exactly the same. The concept of a lady comes from the time period, reinforced with literature and movies and the like. How often does a young girl get told 'thats not very ladylike' just because she is having a bit of fun, running around knocking boys over all playing in the mud etc? Does anyone ever say that's not very girl like or woman like? They are not the same thing, it's amazing really that I'm having to spell this out.

Act like a lady? Behave like a lady? Be lady like? What do you think all these things mean?

It is not a phrase like woman or girl. It is an entire concept in itself.

To go back to my girlfriend she has muscles, she sweats when she exercises, she wears jeans and t-shirts, she sometimes spends days elbow deep in cadavers. She doesn't swoon, she doesn't need someone to open the door for her, she doesn't need someone to give up their seat for her, she doesn't need a man to pay for dinner, she doesn't need to be chaste, she doesn't need to be treated any differently than a man and she doesn't need outdated and outmoded concepts about how she should be forced upon her.

Do you have daughters?

Is the whole 'This Girl Can' thing passing you by?

 

[Teaboy]

i have issues with it, being a trans woman. However, I notice that it does get used at work a fair amount, by women, so I'm going with it to an extent, but I much prefer woman/ women.

For sure, it gets used all the time and a lot of people won't have an issue with it but some do and with good reason. I only brought it up as another reason 'ladies and gentleman' is past its sell by date, if indeed it ever had one.

 

[Sea Star]

For sure, it gets used all the time and a lot of people won't have an issue with it but some do and with good reason. I only brought it up as another reason 'ladies and gentleman' is past its sell by date, if indeed it ever had one.

its a very valid reason for a lot of women that i know. Sure I think most of us use ladies from time to time but it just doesn;t feel right in every day context like being on the tube. I'm hoping madam is the next word to be disappeared. I have no need to be gendered everytime i access a service or make a purchase, even less by such loaded and old fashioned words, and even less so because for a couple of years, half the time, people used to get it wrong!

 

[Pickman's model]

when will pubs catch up?

 

[EastEnder]

i have issues with it, being a trans woman. However, I notice that it does get used at work a fair amount, by women, so I'm going with it to an extent, but I much prefer woman/ women.

The problem with "women" is that it can't be used as an address, e.g.: "Hello women"

As a trans woman, how would you prefer to addressed, for example in formal situations? I'm thinking about those kind of occasions, such as at a wedding say, where traditionally the address would be "Ladies & gentlemen, if you'd kindly take your seats". In those kind of situations people like a bit of formality, a bit of pomp & ceremony. Let's say someone wanted to organise such an event, and they wanted be able to politely address a mixed crowd whilst striving to avoid upsetting anyone, what would be your suggested solution? I know the address could be replaced with "Everybody, if you'd kindly take your seats", but that sounds a bit naff & certainly lacks the gravitas of a "posh" occasion.

As you're more in tune with these issues than most people, I'd be very interested to know your thoughts on how you think this sort of thing should be handled.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You're confusing sex with gender. Gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality.

A few years back it was argued it was a social construct. In fact I'm sure it still is. Or did the feminists lose that one?

 

[Santino]

A few years back it was argued it was a social construct. In fact I'm sure it still is. Or did the feminists lose that one?

Whatever it is, it must be very very simple and easy to condense into a short sentence. Agreed?

 

[1927]

People don't want to be judged by gender any more.

Really?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

The change is minor, costs nothing, hurts nobody and might make some people feel more welcome and included.

and it pisses daily mail types off

good result all round

 

[bimble]

A few years back it was argued it was a social construct. In fact I'm sure it still is. Or did the feminists lose that one?

I like your new tagline.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I like your new tagline.

Cheers

 

[twentythreedom]

You people