Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

[SpookyFrank]

Wouldn't it have been a transformative moment if when they turned up Posie had gone on the mic and said to the trans protesters I know we have our differences but shall we work together to kick these Nazis out of this demo?

She didn't.

Probably because the nazis were her ride home tbf.

 

[hitmouse]

Can you give an example of this near-total ideological alignment? This sounds very strange to me. Possibly because I tend to avoid the topic, but I can't say that I've noticed this.

Some of it's been covered above, but if you look at the overlap of Christian fundamentalist, anti-gay, anti-abortion groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom and the Heritage Foundation and then ostensibly feminist groups like the Women's Liberation Front then it becomes a lot clearer. A few articles that give some helpful background:

Conservative group hosts anti-transgender panel of feminists ‘from the left’

Divide and conquer? The conservative Heritage Foundation hosted a panel of “radical feminists” fighting trans rights.

www.nbcnews.com

Radical feminists team up with right-wing evangelicals to oppose trans rights protections

In one of the most bizarre political alliances of recent times, a group of radical feminists are working alongside ultra-conservative, anti-abortion Christian groups to overturn transgender rights protections.

www.thepinknews.com

Values Voter Summit Panelist: ‘Divide & Conquer’ To Defeat ‘Totalitarian’ Trans Inclusion Policies | Right Wing Watch

Last weekend’s Values Voter Summit, the annual political gathering sponsored by the intensely anti-LGBTQ Family Research Council, featured a breakout

www.rightwingwatch.org

Fake ‘radical feminist’ group a paid political front for anti-LGBT organization

WoLF, an anti-transgender group that positions itself as being pro-women and pro-choice, is secretly funded by Kim Davis' lawyers...

www.lgbtqnation.com

Some examples of what this crossover looks like in practice over the years would be, for instance, the Heritage Foundation hosting a speaker from the Women's Liberation Front back in 2017, and groups like Women's Liberation Front and Women's Declaration International co-hosting an event with the Heritage Foundation, Family Research Council, Family Policy Alliance and Turning Point last summer, or the likes of Kara Dansky regularly appearing on Tucker Carlson.

 

[hitmouse]

Fwiw I like the arm trans kids slogan. It's obviously tongue in cheek and the anti-trans will find ways of being the victim anyway. I think the kids are on the front line on this often against their parents/guardians* given that puberty/teenage years are so critical to trans youth.

I find myself getting increasingly grumpy about that sort of thing, I know that the phrase "culture war" is a bit controversial and maybe something like access to trans healthcare isn't/shouldn't be a culture war issue but this kind of "trigger the libs terfs", "are you cool enough to find our banner funny or are you kind of the square who thinks it's alarming?" shit is absolutely classic culture war stuff. I'd have a bit more respect for them if they actually were 3d printing guns to give to kids or something. And yeah, perhaps anyone on the other side on the day will have already made their mind up, but there's still a lot of people in the middle ground who've not given it a lot of thought and will just encounter this message through the media scare stories, and I don't think it's likely to do much good in winning anyone over. Maybe if people want to make edgy jokes they should find somewhere to do it where they're not being filmed by an intensely hostile opposition looking to incite a moral panic?

*I wonder if the framework of patriarchy is adequate for the purpose of describing this particular dynamic. The oppression of women is closely related to but not identical with the oppression of children. Certainly the vulgar biological males versus biological females gender critical version of feminism misses the place of children completely, and some versions now don't include any critique of the family but just focus on "sex based rights". I don't know quite where my thinking is heading but I like that children are put back into the equation not as units to be safe guarded (usually against perverts/strangers but not against familiar abuse) but as independent actors in their own right.

Fwiw, I think "youth liberation" tends to be the framework that I've seen trans anarchist types use a lot recently, but I can't claim to have read that deeply into what exactly youth liberation involves, partly due to finding the people who are most vocally into it a bit annoying.

 

[smokedout]

I find myself getting increasingly grumpy about that sort of thing, I know that the phrase "culture war" is a bit controversial and maybe something like access to trans healthcare isn't/shouldn't be a culture war issue but this kind of "trigger the libs terfs", "are you cool enough to find our banner funny or are you kind of the square who thinks it's alarming?" shit is absolutely classic culture war stuff.

I'm not sure it's culture war stuff at all, or intended that way at least. I think it's part of a long tradition of queer and radical feminist provocations that dates back to the SCUM Manifesto and probably before that. The Die Terf type banners have not been very helpful but being polite and trying to operate on their terms isn't working either, and has never worked historically. I like it, it's got the right mix of defiance and humour and if it's sent them into a meltdown because they've got no sense of humour and are desperate to be outraged than good. People were outraged by a lot of feminist and queer propaganda, and that banner is mild in comparison.

I don't think it serves trans people at all to be constantly on the back foot and worried about offending those who seek trans elimination. And since when did radical campaigners give a fuck what The Daily Telegraph said about them. It's not like there's anything trans people could do or say to win over the right wing press, and I don't think that should be a goal anyway.

 

[Cloo]

I think there has been less of the 'Die TERF' type rhetoric because people now realise it will be amplified a thousandfold as 'Look at what these people are like! They're all just violent MEN'. I certainly think it's fine to be angry but also probably best to avoid anything that could be interpreted as threatening as we all know they go running to Big Daddy Press going 'Boohoo, they're threatening to kill us'; it's possible to be angry without using threats, and these people don't understand hyperbole.

 

[ouirdeaux]

I have never understood why so many consider death threats to be obvious hyperbole when they agree with the ostensible motives of the person issuing them.

Obviously, most death threats are hyperbole, or at least not serious. But that's not really the point.

 

[smokedout]

I think there has been less of the 'Die TERF' type rhetoric because people now realise it will be amplified a thousandfold as 'Look at what these people are like! They're all just violent MEN'. I certainly think it's fine to be angry but also probably best to avoid anything that could be interpreted as threatening as we all know they go running to Big Daddy Press going 'Boohoo, they're threatening to kill us'; it's possible to be angry without using threats, and these people don't understand hyperbole.

Yeah I agree. I think there's a generational thing going on as well. Teenagers say terrible things to each other and always have but adults rarely heard the worst of it. Now it's all over social media. I came across some thread on reddit I think where a bunch of kids were discussing this and they were mystified how someone posting a meme of some anime character holding a gun saying fuck you terf was some kind of awful credible death threat. They post this kind of shit to each other all the time, it's just a joke to them - which isn't a defence of it more that they very clearly saw it completely differently to the outraged gender criticals.

I'm glad it's died down though and hope it stays that way. But it does reveal a huge double standard when terfs are chatting and shaking hands with actual sieg-heiling nazis carrying a banner saying Destroy Paedo Freaks as happened in Melbourne and then get to claim that's nothing to do with them whereas trans people are supposed to hang our heads in penance and endlessly apologise everytime some 14 year old queer kid sends JK Rowling a dodgy tweet.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I did. Which is why I said exactly that. ElizabethofYork can read and knows this full well.

Maybe the self-described GC feminists should be the ones asking themselves why their ideology fits in so nicely with anti-feminist ideologies such as christian fundamentalism and outright fascism.

I didn't understand what you meant. Now I do. You've been very rude and aggressive towards me over the past few days, which is a bit strange.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Wouldn't it have been a transformative moment if when they turned up Posie had gone on the mic and said to the trans protesters I know we have our differences but shall we work together to kick these Nazis out of this demo?

She didn't. She didn't say anything, and whilst she has said she doesn't agree with them she has never asked them not to come. In fact she has repeatedly courted far right and alt right figures. She gave a platform to a prominent Proud Boys member on her tour in the US and used a far right militia linked group for security on one occassion. She's appeared on a host of far right and alt right podcasts and other media. People in her circle such as Venice Allen have been attending the Turning Point Drag Queen demos in Honor Oak, only for Turning Point to attend Posie's demos the next day.

I think she wants them there and so do many other Gender Criticals. Both groups support the elimination of 'transgenderism'. Many of Posie's supporters have promoted antisemitic trans-humanist conspiracy theories as well as being anti-vaxxers. Both the far right and gender critical movement have adopted the strategy of smearing Trans and Queer people as paedophiles and a threat to children. There are many in the GC movement who support traditional gender roles and oppose reproductive healthcare to a greater or lesser degree including Posie who is campaigning against Gillick competence. These incidentally are what JKR is claiming are solid left wing/feminist issues.

On many issues Posie's cult and the far right are in alignment and they share common ground on others. And it's worth remembering she got de-platformed by gender critical group Woman's Place of all people for making racist and islamophobic comments. It wouldn't suprise me at all if she has aspirations to become some populist Marie Le Pen type figure and the support of people like JKR will help her get there.

If you're at a demo and Nazis turn up and you don't kick them out in my book that's a nazi demo.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If you're at a demo and Nazis turn up and you don't kick them out in my book that's a nazi demo.

Out of curiosity, did the opposition kick them out?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Because an alternative reading of the situation could be that antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community as long as it made those they disagreed with look bad.

 

[Orang Utan]

Because an alternative reading of the situation could be that antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community as long as it made those they disagreed with look bad.

How would you come to that conclusion?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

How would you come to that conclusion?

Because anti-fascists confront fascists. They don't just take photos of them alongside people who are bigots and simply walk away.

 

[Orang Utan]

Because anti-fascists confront fascists. They don't just take photos of them alongside people who are bigots and simply walk away.

Yes. They take photos AND they confront the fascists

 

[hitmouse]

I don't know how things work in Australia, but in my experience when you have demos and counter-demos you often tend to have a lot of people with bright yellow jackets and funny hats standing in between them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don't know how things work in Australia, but in my experience when you have demos and counter-demos you often tend to have a lot of people with bright yellow jackets and funny hats standing in between them.

There's other opportunities if your objective is to confront fascists. Given neither side did, I don't think it's a massive goal tbh.

 

[Cloo]

Because an alternative reading of the situation could be that antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community as long as it made those they disagreed with look bad.

Well, I was standing there in the crowd full of antifacists, so I can give you more than a 'reading'

Could there be some degree of satisfaction that people like KJK have obvious fash siding with them, in that it sends a clear message they are wronguns to people who may have been sitting on the fence? Probably.

Would people rather no facists were involved at all in a movement that seems to remain defended by much mainstream media? Yes, I very much think they would prefer there not to be any.

A few of the antifa there, I am sure, would have liked the chance to 'confront' the facists in a more physical manner, but they were also mindful that this would endanger most of the crowd they were siding with so they generally avoided that. Mostly the crowd was there to try to make some noise and disrupt the audio of any video content made by KJK at the event.

 

[hitmouse]

Just done a quick bit of research, and as I suspected:

Statement of Concern: Policing of opposing anti-trans & trans rights rallies • Melbourne Activist Legal Support

Melbourne Activist Legal Support (MALS) expresses concern regarding the failure of police to act compatibly with human rights and give proper consideration to human rights in tactical decisions whilst policing opposing rallies at Parliament House on Saturday, 18 March 2023.

mals.au

Antifascists wanting to remove the nazis from Parker's rally would have had to get through this lot in order to do so:

At 2:07pm on Bourke Street, MALS recorded footage of a PORT officer kneeing a protestor in the back of the neck twice after they had already been taken to the ground and were being held down by three other PORT officers.

MALS has also seen footage of a PORT officer stepping forward and punching a protestor in the face...
Legal observers saw police pushing and grabbing protestors around the head and neck whilst shouting “move, move” and pushing them further back towards the building walls.

MALS observed that this overly forceful crowd control measure was unnecessary under the circumstances and served to ignite a series of events that culminated in two aggressive arrests, OC spray use, and injuries...
Legal observers understand that around 25-30 people were treated for OC-related injuries by street medic teams.

That being the case, I don't think that you can really conclude that "antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community" just because they failed to remove the sieg heilers on this occasion.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Just done a quick bit of research, and as I suspected:

Statement of Concern: Policing of opposing anti-trans & trans rights rallies • Melbourne Activist Legal Support

Melbourne Activist Legal Support (MALS) expresses concern regarding the failure of police to act compatibly with human rights and give proper consideration to human rights in tactical decisions whilst policing opposing rallies at Parliament House on Saturday, 18 March 2023.

mals.au

Antifascists wanting to remove the nazis from Parker's rally would have had to get through this lot in order to do so:
View attachment 377121

That being the case, I don't think that you can really conclude that "antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community" just because they failed to remove the sieg heilers on this occasion.

Yeah. You can turn up to an event with a t-shirt saying “hai, I’m an anti fascist!” And stand behind a police line for sure.

 

[Orang Utan]

Yeah. You can turn up to an event with a t-shirt saying “hai, I’m an anti fascist!” And stand behind a police line for sure.

What else do you think happens?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What else do you think happens?

Oh I don’t know. There’s a century’s worth of history that points to alternative tactics.

 

[Orang Utan]

Oh I don’t know. There’s a century’s worth of history that points to alternative tactics.

?? Are you criticising demonstrators for not putting the boot in or something? The crowd I was in at the demo last year were not really fighters. But they still turned up to confront the fash.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, it's certainly possible to take action away from big events. But if you agree that it's possible to use alternative tactics that don't involve head-on confrontations at big events with lots of cops around, then I don't understand how you get to "antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community".

 

[SpookyFrank]

Because an alternative reading of the situation could be that antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community as long as it made those they disagreed with look bad.

Believe it or not most antifascists would be a lot happier if there wasn't any antifascism that needed doing.

And TERFs are quite capable of making themselves look bad without any help from nazis.

 

[Dystopiary]

Magnus McGinty I should think for a lot of people it takes a hell of a lot of courage to even be there, standing against people who threaten their existence.

 

[smokedout]

Oh I don’t know. There’s a century’s worth of history that points to alternative tactics.

Don't be silly no-one knew in advance a bunch of Nazis were going to show up in Melbourne and there was already a heavy police presence before they arrived.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Next time we'll just call in Magnus with his anti-fascist Apache helicopter and he'll have the whole thing sorted out in no time.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Because an alternative reading of the situation could be that antifascists were happy for there to be people seig heiling in their community as long as it made those they disagreed with look bad.

With the greatest of respect, I think you need a lie down after those two posts. Is it now the job of a counter demo to police who's at the demo they're countering? Seriously? For fucks sake I didn't think you were quite this shit.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Sort of serves me right for kicking the hornet’s nest

 

[Sasaferrato]

When I see on the television, a middle aged woman entering a building surrounded by security, because others wish to physically prevent her from speaking, I know who the fascists are.

Free speech means that others may say say things you don't like, and cuts both ways.