brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Thicko right-wing cricketers(sportsfolk) have been mobilised this week; only yesterday Warnie & KP (& Dallaglio) came out for Goldsmith.
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sounds like a pointless fudgery. He didn't have any problem in choosing in the past.Zizek was just on C4 News. They were pressing him on an "in" or "out" position. I'm not entirely sure what his answer was, but I found myself agreeing with it
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Pointless, entertaining, fudgery with a dash of tubthumping more like....
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
In the Thatcher/UKIP loving corner of North Essex where I live this is the view of just about everybody I know, old & well pensioned or young & skint. If I try & start a discussion with any of them giving them facts & figures they just get angry & tell me I'm believing the lies & it's the fucking immigrants scrounging our benefits & NHS. There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts. I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?Of the remainder thirty want to leave because of migrants, no matter where they come from because that is the only cause of all our problems according to them!
This view seems very widespread & I don't think all the facts & figures in the world will make them change it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Blah-blah-blah. How about saying something that isn't just a re-hash of points made in the previous 60-odd pages? Something like why the Euro is, in your opinion, a "fuck up", perhaps using the dollar and sterling as comparators?
What makes you think they want some sort of revolution?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course not. It's much easier to find a scapegoat, than to admit that you've been had.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I actually quite like Hannan's answer on this, probably the only thing he's ever said that I could say that of, 'Being pro-EU because you like Europe is like being pro-FIFA because you like football'
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
I think that there is constant conflict between capital and labour and that to simply write off the entirety of the actions of labour over decades is pretty contemptuous of many people fighting everyday (admittedly often with limited or little success). People haven't been/aren't currently protesting cuts to their communities? Junior doctors aren't out on strike? The biggest ever demonstration in the UK didn't happen this century? To write these things out of existence is insulting.
I think the above quite clearly feeds into the liberal/social democratic pro-EU theme that you support though, that the we need the nice enlightened EU to protect the backwards British working class from itself.
EDIT: I think it's characteristic and relevant that so many of those arguing for a remain vote talk about the EU protecting workers rights rather than workers using the tensions between national governments and the EU to force some legal protection. Labour is always passive to them.
It's one of the most depressing things about the arguments of those arguing for a remain vote, many of them supposedly 'progressives'. During the Scottish Independence referendum there were posters who argued for a YES vote, not because they believe that Scotland would suddenly become socialist (or even social-democratic) but because they argued that Scottish labour could better force demands on an independent Scottish government. Now whatever you think about the correctness of that argument it's at least coming from the right place, that (to repeat a line I used on another thread)
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newbie
undisambiguated
aye ok. Not my intention to insult anyone. I recognise plenty of people have taken individual and collective action. Mostly defensive and, as you say, not particularly successfully.
That's not the same as the "best way for us to attack capital", which is what you said and what I asked you about. Attack isn't defensive. Maybe it's escaped your notice but the vast majority of attacks are top down- the doctors are responding to attack, not launching one.
So rather than suggesting my question was some sort of veiled insult why not explain what you meant?
yes but I don't, as I've said before.
can you give a positive example of workers using these tensions please, because I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
by the same token I'm finding it quite depressing that people line up to make unsubstantiated assertions along the same lines in this referendum. That labour could better force demands on an independent government. Rather than be forced by that government.
Which ignores that there's no evidence of an organised left/progressive/labour (small 'l') Out campaign. The TUC and major unions and (big 'L') Labour support In, largely on old fashioned grounds like solidarity and internationalism. That's pretty much dismissed by those who desperately want labour to be anything but passive.
So how is labour to be in a position to take advantage of the result and force demands which actually restrict capital and improve conditions?
Cid
Proper break this time
Well at least they have one thing right.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...previous examples from the Osborne School of Soothsaying ....
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
More than anything id say it panic over immigration driving anti-EU sentiment. If britain leaves the EU the thinking seems to be that we can stop all those bloody foreigners coming over here. But what never seems to be pointed out is that this is bollocks - the NHS would collapse without overseas workers and London would probably cease to function - and then you have the issue of the many many brits working in EU countries. For an exited UK to close its borders would be economic suicide - it is not going to happen. They should be called on this bullshit.
youngian
Well-Known Member
We know from Osborne and Cameron's narrative about Labour overspending that electoral politics is not about voters studying graphs in the Economist but emotion; do I trust the cut of this person's gib over the other person? It's ultimately a judgement call; if voters decide they like the look of Gove, Farage, Galloway, Boris, the Taxpayers Alliance and Putin over Osborne, Corbyn, Tim Farron, the treasury and Obama then Leave will win the argument.
It's a problem but not such as widespread as you some people think
Most people work or know someone from another EU state and have no problem as long they are not coming over to take benefits. Perhaps if Kippers stopped talking to people like they are shit they might also get a job beside a Latvian who has some basic manners and respect for people.
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Smangus
comatose at a desk
Government U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions - BBC News
Good news
, but I wonder how much of this was a trade off for the Unions supporting remain?
Good news
, but I wonder how much of this was a trade off for the Unions supporting remain?
youngian
Well-Known Member
Government U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions - BBC News
Good news
Not much but Corbyn's EU ambivalence during the leadership campaign was part of a union push to pressure Cameron not to water down social legislation as part of his renegotiation.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Guess who's coming to Britain to bolster the Brexit campaign? Why, only Marine Le Pen.
That's the Janice Atkinson, who referred to a Thai woman as a 'ting tong' .
That's the Janice Atkinson, who referred to a Thai woman as a 'ting tong' .
Smangus
comatose at a desk
This is getting beyond parody! Lol
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
French far-right leader Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
Marine Le Pen will be coming to London to campaign for a Brexit...... I hope she's met by some serious fucking anger.
Marine Le Pen will be coming to London to campaign for a Brexit...... I hope she's met by some serious fucking anger.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
and by assorted fruit and veg...
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yup, you meet the nicest people on the Brexit campaign!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No murderers in the stay camp of course. Did you put anything in that food bank last night btw?
gosub
~#
would imagine most convicted murderers would prefer to keep their rights triple locked.
War criminals in the end realized anything they said was counter productive
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Boris Johnson suggests 'part-Kenyan' Obama may have an 'ancestral dislike' of Britain
Boris, the masks slips.. doesn't referring to Obama's ancestry = racism?
Boris, the masks slips.. doesn't referring to Obama's ancestry = racism?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Most of his comments were odd - that one you mention, but most of all the "If you leave you will be at the back of the queue for / it will take ten years to get trade deals" - which sort of exposes the "special relationship" for the nonsense that it always was, is somewhat offensive given the cost of backing them over Iraq, Afghanistan etc, and most of all is not something he is going to have any influence over.
Though of course he is probably just playing the US game of trying to ensure that the EU is as unworkable as possible, without collapsing or reforming itself along sane lines. After all, if it did turn into a genuinely competent state (and especially if it expanded to encompass the frogs around the pond) the main loser would be the US.
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