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Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

Some more bullshit here if anyones interested,,,
Osborne's Mortgage Warning Over Quitting EU
outright lies!
The threat of Brexit has already caused Sterling to fall so higher interest rates post-Brexit in order to retain the value of the currency is not fanciful.


The BBC was recently having fun with a lamentably inadequate history of all those long-controversial EU regulations laying down the required marketing standards for fruit and veg, such as cabbages, cucumbers and bananas. The point it wanted to make was that Brussels had finally recognised these rules as being “a little bit daft”, and so very sensibly repealed them. But what the BBC failed to tell us was that the reason they were all scrapped was that they have now been replaced by new standards handed down from another global body: the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) based not in Brussels but in Geneva,
The bendy banana rules were always negotiated through the WTO in order to have common international trading standards. Christopher Brooker is a swivel-eyed loon conspiracy theorist who doesn't believe in any international institutionalism.
 
The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not

The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority


I’m no cheerleader to for the HoC and the FPTP system but its democratic deficit isn’t as bad as the EU
The EU council legislator is the elected governments that make up the membership of the EU. If you moved toward an elected federal executive like the US with the EP acting as the sole legislator you are creating a pan-European hegemony. The history of Europe shows that hegemonies ended in tears just as much as balance of power alliance systems. The EU was created as a fudge. It's not elegant or heart-stirring but the member states are still at peace in an increasingly chaotic global system.
 
The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not

The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority


I’m no cheerleader to for the HoC and the FPTP system but its democratic deficit isn’t as bad as the EU

Council s made up of the elected heads of goverrment (who do have some power), most power stems from the Commission -current system has leader chosen from outcome of EUropan Parliament elections. -who then allocates roles to the person each national government has put forward. Current Head's party didn't even find it necessary to put up candidates in the UK (and yet we are going to reform the system some how:rolleyes:.) Major overhaul, these still requires complete consensus, a lot of reform can be done on QMV -and UK has got stuffed by that repeatedly.
 
The threat of Brexit has already caused Sterling to fall so higher interest rates post-Brexit in order to retain the value of the currency is not fanciful.

That's nothing more then speculators jumping on the gravy train combined with the fact the the US increased their rates. Our interest rates are set by the bank of England anyway, not the ECB. SO i don't really see an reason as to why leaving the EU will cause rates to go up.
 
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greece really was the nail for me. They'll do a deal, I thought. Its happened before. Then fuck all. I remember reading Varoufakis saying how he laid out a viable payback plan, terms etc- all worked out and solid. No response at all not even a 'we can't work with that'. Just complete silence and then a repeat of their terms. If they'll turn greece into a workhouse for electing a left government then they'll do it to anyone. Fuck that.
And yet Varoufakis nonetheless thinks it's better to stay in, and change the EU for better rather than let it disintegrate and end up with something no better -



I think he's probably right.
 
And yet Varoufakis nonetheless thinks it's better to stay in, and change the EU for better rather than let it disintegrate and end up with something no better -



I think he's probably right.

LBJ said the same and I know his position, I invoke him not as a saint to follow but simply to explain who was writing about that stonewall of a 'negotiation'
 
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More so than the hope that for some reason the form of the UK governement will change for the better as a result of us leaving the EU?

Well if you'd read this thread, you'd know I think this whole situation offers a pretty shit choice really. But, its more likely that government and governmental policy can be influenced and changed on a national level, than it is through Europe as it stands. At the end of the day though, capital interests still rule.

Besides, I'm not convinced Varoufakis, along with a mottley crew of Chomsky, Julian Assange and Ken Loach are going to able to achieve much, no.
 
Some more bullshit here if anyones interested,,,

Osborne's Mortgage Warning Over Quitting EU


outright lies!

If sterling falls - as it has already under the threat of leaving the EU - its perfectly possible interest rates could rise. And one of the biggest spurs to housing prices in London after the financial crisis was the fall in sterling. It would also make imports that much more expensive, notably oil/fuels.
 
But, its more likely that government and governmental policy can be influenced and changed on a national level, than it is through Europe as it stands.

This seems to take the premise that we are prevented making changes to national governmental policy by our membership of the EU. I don't see that we are. I asked earlier in the thread for things that the UK government has wanted to do, and been prevented from doing by the UK. I don't recall any good examples being forthcoming. And I don't see that the EU has any significant impact on who we vote for when we go to the polling station for our own elections.

Perhaps you would argue that in, say, a fantasy Corbyn administration things would be different - there would be attempts to change things within the UK that would be blocked by the EU. I don't know. Maybe there would - in which case, the argument for leaving would change. But it's not the EU that is preventing that Corbyn administration from coming to pass, as far as I can see.
 
had a leaflet some time this week with front page about saving the NHS

inside it's saying to vote leave so that we can give more money to the NHS instead of to Europe.

I'm far from convinced that gove, IDS and the other tory twunts who are behind this give a flying fuck about the NHS.
 
That's nothing more then speculators jumping on the gravy train combined with the fact the the US increased their rates. Our interest rates are set by the bank of England anyway, not the ECB. SO i don't really see an reason as to why leaving the EU will cause rates to go up.
it isn't `speculators`. no such thing. traders `speculate` on the fundamentals of commodities and currencies. they don't place their bets to lose, they bet because they think - in this case - leaving the EU will hit sterling. and it will, it's pretty obvious. not only that it could keep it low for a long time as the negotiations go on.

People on the right and left who want to leave should recognise that they might win and the economic circumstances could be very bad for the UK and especially the poor. The richest as ever will be the least impacted upon, either way.
 
it isn't `speculators`. no such thing. traders `speculate` on the fundamentals of commodities and currencies. they don't place their bets to lose, they bet because they think - in this case - leaving the EU will hit sterling. and it will, it's pretty obvious. not only that it could keep it low for a long time as the negotiations go on.

People on the right and left who want to leave should recognise that they might win and the economic circumstances could be very bad for the UK and especially the poor. The richest as ever will be the least impacted upon, either way.
Circumstances for the poor will be very bad whatever the outcome of the referendum. It is merely a 'choice' between the particular manner in which neoliberalism is to be conducted; either via the supra-state, bureaucratic imposition of market justice or through the free-market fundamentalism of the Atlanticists. In that sense the referendum is a massive distraction from the class war undertaken by the consolidator states on the behalf of financialised capital.
 
Best in all these cases not to make it worse. Problems with the EU are many-fold, but they are visible. The biggest problem with the EU is not the EU, it is the Euro.

I still think the case put by the TUC in the link on this thread about how employees rights will be dismantled is the best reason to stay in the EU.
 
I'm far from convinced that gove, IDS and the other tory twunts who are behind this give a flying fuck about the NHS.

Well they don't do they? They want the break-up and marketisation of the health service.

However, the EU has already imposed its market and competition rules on the NHS too.

We can't really win - the EU is a neoliberal project based on opening up markets and competition. And so have all three major parties in the UK for years too - so voters haven't had much choice. And the EU has less accountancy to us as voters than our own government.

The EU does create difficulties for any member governments and re-nationalisation of industries. Just as Butchers said earlier in the thread that whilst we seemingly celebrate workers rights that have come from the EU, these are top-down (in some cases 15 years old) and are more about protecting capital interests of labour markets, not workers rights for workers themselves. Of course, we should greatly fear what a Tory government would/does do in regards to workers and other rights, but belief that the EU is some sort of 'restraining' force over them just isn't really true. Especially, as we found out with Greece, the EU will readily force an austerity agenda onto its members to protect its interests.
 
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Best in all these cases not to make it worse. Problems with the EU are many-fold, but they are visible. The biggest problem with the EU is not the EU, it is the Euro.

I still think the case put by the TUC in the link on this thread about how employees rights will be dismantled is the best reason to stay in the EU.
They will be dismantled by the EU, anyway.
 
Really? What evidence do you have the EU is planning to change its various rights acts and legislation?
 
Really? What evidence do you have the EU is planning to change its various rights acts and legislation?
None, of course.
But the trajectory of enforced de-democratisation of consolidator states will continue apace. Ultimately 'the markets' have to be assured that the honouring of their debt repayments will be privileged above all other constituencies. When austerity dictates increased 'productivity' through the erosion of employment rights the EU will oblige.
 
....for example France's social model is under sustained attack from the EU...sorry I mean they are "...encouraging reform..."

EU Commission vice-president encourages France to reform labour market

...the EU has long been asking for a substantial labour market reform in France of the same calibre as Hartz IV....

...that'd be The much-hated Hartz IV that "....ultimately split Germany's center-left, led to the creation of the more radical and populist Left party, and permanently weakened the SPD in subsequent elections...."
 
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Workers’ rights: The EU Dilemma
MorningStar said:
WITH the prospect of a referendum on continued EU membership drawing closer, trade unions and their members in Britain and Northern Ireland need to take a view on the merits of the EU.

For many, disgust at the EU’s humiliation of Greece, the supplanting of Greek democracy by rule from Brussels and the imposition of terms which even the IMF considered counterproductive will be decisive. But there are other matters to be weighed in the balance.

Since 2008 the troika (European Commission, European Central Bank and the IMF) has abused every request for financial assistance from countries which crashed their public finances by bailing out the banks which caused the financial crisis.

Every intervention has been seized as an opportunity to impose structural adjustment programmes and austerity. Austerity is a particularly effective means of redistributing income and wealth from the poorest to the richest.

One of the measures used has been the imposition of “labour market reforms” restricting worker and trade union rights in the countries affected. So national-level collective bargaining structures and the right to strike have been diminished, job security undermined and pay freezes imposed.

Beyond that, new rules for economic governance and “structural reform” since 2011 (the “Sixpack” for all EU countries and the “Twopack” for Euro countries which build upon the Stability and Growth Pact) have permitted the European Commission to interfere in the economies of all EU countries, not least in relation to wage determination mechanisms.

Pressure is applied to reform labour markets — in particular, the decentralisation of collective bargaining.
It is the EU too which has negotiated the EU-South Korea Free Trade Agreement, the Comprehensive Economic Trade Agreement (Ceta) with Canada and the EU-South Korea Free Trade Agreement. The EU is now negotiating the infamous Transatlantic Trade and Partnership Agreement (TTIP) with the US and the less well-known multilateral Trade in Services Agreement (Tisa).

All these free trade agreements (negotiated in absolute secrecy so that even the members of the parliaments concerned are not permitted to see drafts) give multinational corporations rights which citizens do not have, in the name of “investor protection.”

This is a right over and above the law of the US, in which the corporations operate. It is a right to sue a state for loss of hoped-for profit arising from alleged lack of “fair and equitable treatment” or “expropriation.”

The latter is the means by which billions of dollars can be awarded against a country which renationalises services which have been privatised. The former is for claims for profit loss such as from a decision to stop building nuclear on public interest grounds.

All the agreements contain the dreaded Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) arbitration provisions, which means a private court in which only a multinational can sue. And the decisions of these private arbitrations override contrary judgments of national courts and even those of the European Court of Human Rights and the Court of Justice of the EU (CJEU).

The main object of these agreements is deregulation — the watering down of protective laws to the lowest common denominator (“regulatory co-operation” resulting in “downward harmonisation,” to use the jargon).

Campaigners have pointed to the likely catastrophic effect of these agreements on food, environmental and medicine standards, but deregulation is likely to be used against workers’ rights regarding health and safety, working time, collective agreements and strikes.

A free trade agreement has already been used as the basis of a claim for loss of profit by reason of a state’s increasing of the national minimum wage.

The EU has already passed directives which require privatisation and preclude renationalisation. An example is the railways. Privatisation always reduces terms and conditions and reduces security of employment.

On the other hand, European workers, especially British workers, have a lot to thank the EU for.

During the bleak neoliberal Thatcher years and since, it was the EU which required British governments to legislate against discrimination and for equal treatment, to protect health and safety at work, limit maximum working hours and provide paid holidays, to secure rights on transfers of undertakings (when organisations are taken over by a new employer), to give minimum rights to part-time, temporary and agency workers and to require information and consultation.

But the well of such EU protections has now dried up and no more significant rights are likely ever to flow again. Indeed, with David Cameron touring Europe to seek support for British opt-outs from the application of EU workers’ rights, other right-wing EU governments are likely to follow suit so such rights may be reduced across the EU.

In fact, the EU has long faced both ways on labour rights. In a series of cases including Viking and Laval, the CJEU subjugated the fundamental human rights to strike and bargain collectively to the freedoms of business enshrined in the four pillars of the EU Treaty: freedom of movement of capital, freedom of movement of labour, freedom for a business in one EU country to establish in another, and freedom for a business in one EU country to provide services in another.

The focus of those four freedoms is to permit capital to exploit cheap labour. In that context, the right of free movement of labour — attractive though it sounds — has been the source of much friction exploited by neofascists across Europe.

The EU, instead of outlawing the undercutting of collectively bargained terms and conditions, has deliberately refused to uphold the primacy of collective bargaining. This has encouraged employers to import migrant labour (skilled and unskilled) to work on lower terms and conditions than local workers, undermined (and, in some cases, destroyed) collective bargaining, fanned the flames of racism and often condemned migrant labour to Victorian levels of poverty.

This is precisely the “social dumping” which it was claimed the social dimension of the EU would prevent.Consistent with the underlying policy of Viking and Laval, and illustrative of the real nature of the EU, was the case of Alemmo Heron.

There the CJEU held that the employer’s “right to run a business” trumped the workers’ rights to the benefits of collective bargaining incorporated into their contracts of employment — disregarding the fact the right to collective bargaining is expressly protected by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU.

From the perspective of labour rights, the answer to the question of which way to vote in the forthcoming referendum may appear self-evident.

But the dilemma for the British trade union movement is that exit from the EU would remove any restraint on our current government sweeping away workers’ EU-derived rights as well as the few home-grown rights that workers and unions still enjoy here.

The government’s pursuit of the spiteful and unnecessary Trade Union Bill proves the point. A vote to stay in the EU, on the other hand, would be a vote to support an institution which will not extend workers’ rights any further and positively works to destroy existing trade union rights.

A Yes vote will be premised on the opt-out of existing rights which Cameron will by then have achieved. The fact that the EU is an institution which is quite prepared to override the democratic will of nation states means that a future government with a different agenda may not be able to fully restore worker and trade union rights.

All this means that the EU referendum presents a real quandary for British trade unions — unless, of course, we have a new government committed to the restoration of trade union and worker rights. With the campaign of Jeremy Corbyn, that is at least a possibility.
 
No chance, remain will have an easy victory - scottish style. Once the question is put to the pocket.

The Scottish comparison is useful.

I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
The Scottish comparison is useful.

I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Yeah, that pretty much sums up my thoughts.
 
The Scottish comparison is useful.

I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
55% : 45%?

The favoured result for continuing tory warfare.

Yep. That said, pretty much any result is going to cause trouble for them.
 
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