Sorry but that just really made me laughIf Scotland leaves the UK I think you might have some problems finding a job in Scotland
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
- Start date
coley
Well-Known Member
The leave camp are just letting people watch the news, they don't need to "campaign' as such.
coley
Well-Known Member
Don't mention it, glad to have given you some amusementSorry but that just really made me laugh
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye, and pig sucker has just made such a marvellous job of that, hasn't he?
Noticed our steel industry is going down the plughole while other EU nations are managing to protect theirs? The only reason pig sucker and his marras want to remain in the EU is to protect the interests of the UKs financial sector.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
How are Germany, as one example, protecting their steel industry? and if they are why are we not?
coley
Well-Known Member
Sorry wellie, I'm not your personal google, but a wee clue, they exempted 'strategic industries' from the emissions controls resulting in said industries not being hammered by the resultant increases in energy costs.
Whereas the UK didn't, resulting in the closure of three aluminium smelters, one on me doorstep, Lynemouth.
And now the steel industry, high energy costs are given as the one of the major reasons of being unable to compete against overseas competition.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Which will be routinely ignored as usual, by people hardly any of us even know the names of, or their roles, or how they got them . Who have all sorts of power over people despite them never having heard of them much less voted for them . Fuck that .
Syriza have tried that. In spades . Massive failure . Because they were too afraid to even consider pulling out of it as an alternative. The EU knew that in advance and just stuck it to them . And they collapsed in a miserable failure .
The above is all true I think, but that still doesn't make me like Brexit campaigners and the utter lies they tell about Europe/the EU. Their demented obsession with the 'evils' of Europe is just bonkers too, and very offputting. My main reason (ultra trivial as it may be) for not wanting to vote Leave is not wanting to reward Boris Johnson and Farage and gang 
.
Not saying the Remain lot are any better. And I'm perfectly well aware that the real issues to do with EU membership are much more serious than the above. More saying that it's all been an utterly shit campaign so far, and a big turnoff. (Didn't expect much else mind you .... )
.Not saying the Remain lot are any better. And I'm perfectly well aware that the real issues to do with EU membership are much more serious than the above. More saying that it's all been an utterly shit campaign so far, and a big turnoff. (Didn't expect much else mind you .... )
newbie
undisambiguated
nobody has yet managed to explain why they think that will change after Brexit.
All recent British governments have been enthusiastic liberals who have allowed low global prices (which are good for consumers as well as financiers) to destroy British manufacturing. As you say, other European governments have managed protectionism of one sort or another, not only for steel but for railways, agriculture.... We're currently being told that it's the British government who lead the resistance to increasing EU tarriffs on Chinese imports.
Why does anyone expect this to suddenly reverse after a Brexit vote?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
To be honest that is done by pro-eu type as well - on the assumption that eu=human rights, ECHR must therefore be eu related, and so those who oppose the eu oppose human rights.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I don't think it will. But if they leave you can actually have a chance..no matter how small..to change it , providing you install someone who will change it or pressure them enough . In the EU there'll be no change, no matter what you do . It's faceless to all intents and purposes . Totally remote . Even when you see the fuckers face it's a case of " who's he ? " . It's the one thing Farage is spot on about . And that's getting him a lot of support besides the other stuff. I think the left overlook that a bit too easily when they're challenging the rest of it .
The deals they cutin Westminster are bad enough, but at least you hear about them . In Brussels it's...wha ?? When ? Who ?? Where ??....because Bulgarian egg producers what ???
gosub
~#
we've been swimming against that tide for over a decade to no avail.
gosub
~#
When it got so far up its own arse you can't even put a pub watch poster up for fear of infringing rights
newbie
undisambiguated
yes, fair enough, that's pretty much the answer to every question and tbf all anyone can really say. It's dead easy to file it under Project Wishful Thinking, but I'm not as dismissive as that sounds, it's a powerful appeal.
But you have to wonder about the the flipside: what happens if there is no progressive government for decades to come, no assertive working class pressure for protection of domestic jobs, living standards or the welfare state?
What the left Out campaign, such as it is, has really offered so far amounts to little more than hope over experience. Bear in mind the right are dreaming too, they dominate the campaigns and the arguments, it seems wholly plausible they'll take the spoils of victory.
The balance of forces hasn't been favourable for the duration of my adult life, and shows very little sign of becoming so. Who is better off Out under those circumstances?
Casually Red said:
Can I SELL that phrase to whichever Brexit campaign might buy me a pint for it?
(Take your post's general point mind .... )
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Isn't it wishful thinking to believe that the long-term trajectory of the EU is in favour of worker's rights? Are we to just ignore the way the European institutions shat all over Greece just to prove a point? This is the direction of travel if we stay in the EU - not 'progressive' politics, whatever that might look like.
What if there is not progressive governance* on an EU level for decades to come? What then? How do you change things?
* Take note I use the word 'governance' instead of 'government', because actually the European project is a technocratic one. We are here to be administrated over, not served in a democratic sense.
This is exactly my opinion of the left-wing arguments for staying in. They are full of hopes of being protected from the evil Tories, and dreams of building a continent-wide social democratic utopia. It's never going to happen - the Tories (or more accurately Capital as a class) will come to (or rather, continue to) dominate the institutions of power in Brussels. We won't win.
Those that make the judgement that it's easier to fight a giant than a juggernaut. A domestic fight will be brutal. A fight spread over an entire continent will be lost.
newbie
undisambiguated
Divide and rule is the oldest trick in the book.
Overall your post is entirely reasonable- that's what makes this whole thing so difficult to make a decision about. However my point about hope over experience stands.
The Social Chapter originated in 1989 with an opt-out by Major, was ratified in 1992 (Maastricht) with another UK opt-out, which was reversed in 1997. The Working Time Directive seems to have started with an International Labour Organisation max 48hour week convention in 1919, which the UK did not ratify, was EU agreed in 1993, with a UK opt-out, and was finally and unenthusiastically implemented here (with opt-outs, including the 48hr week) in 1998 & 2003 after the British government fought and lost a court case in 1996.
So this stuff is from a different era and was opposed tooth and nail by our government. Yet those protections have endured through increasingly neolib technocratic EU governance (and mostly rightwing national governments throughout Europe) and may be extended*.
Equally, of course it may all get swept away Europe-wide at some future negotiation.
Whichever way we collectively vote is a gamble, faith that any outcome will be progessive is a bit of a stretch.
* the WTD review the EC carried out last year covered "on-call time, stand-by time, compensatory rest, autonomous workers (ie the self-employed and volunteers), application per-contract or per-worker, opt-out". New provisions will, of course, be opposed by the UK government, the CBI, the Daily Mail and most of those who walked from the shadow cabinet.
Last edited:
newbie
undisambiguated
Although, there is another point which bears consideration: we're often told that Norway is an example to follow, outside the EU but with all the trading etc advantages. They have to accept EU laws, including the WTD*, but have no say on drafting, implementing them, cannot opt-out or veto.
Maybe the EU would be a more progressive place if the British government was similarly denied a voice.
* more or less! Norway has currently not accepted
Article 8§2 – Illegality of dismissal during maternity leave
Article 8§5 – Prohibition of dangerous, unhealthy or arduous work
Article 18§2 – Simplification of existing formalities and reduction of dues and taxes
Article 18§3 – Liberalisation of regulations
Article 19§8 – Guarantees concerning deportation
Article 26§2 – Moral harassment
Article 29 – Right to information and consultation in collective redundancy procedures
Maybe the EU would be a more progressive place if the British government was similarly denied a voice.
* more or less! Norway has currently not accepted
Article 8§2 – Illegality of dismissal during maternity leave
Article 8§5 – Prohibition of dangerous, unhealthy or arduous work
Article 18§2 – Simplification of existing formalities and reduction of dues and taxes
Article 18§3 – Liberalisation of regulations
Article 19§8 – Guarantees concerning deportation
Article 26§2 – Moral harassment
Article 29 – Right to information and consultation in collective redundancy procedures
They're also in Schengen. So I don't know how that works with we can't control our borders mob.
gosub
~#
It doesn't which is why there is no agreed idea of what out should look like, unfortunately. Though the actual deal isn't one the groups have any influence on. I fully expect it would be a Norway type arrangement leaving scope for Farage et al to continue banging on about immigration/betrayal and the like
Last edited:
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I'll just leave this here.
Tata steel crisis: UK government accused of putting China's interests first - live
Tata steel crisis: UK government accused of putting China's interests first - live
gosub
~#
Yeah, but no. As entirely rational as is to point out that the tories wouldn't be lifting a finger whether we were in or out of EU (disabilities in the budget proved the reluctance to spend on anyone who wouldn't vote tory), still highlights the difficulties EU causes for transparency and accountability - everyone can say they are doing as much as they can while pointing the finger at everyone else, and we are none the wiser, meanwhile a load of blameless people in a strategically important industry get fucked over.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We're not quite none the wiser. We know that the UK govt was a leading voice in blocking tariffs, for instance. I don't quite see how this highlights anything to do with the EU, aside from the fact that it would probably be considerably harder for the UK acting alone to impose tariffs than it would acting as part of a much larger block.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I thought the thinking behind this was particularly odious (it doesn't *seem* to be an April Fool):
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
how dare they take the title of 'britains grassroots out' campaign when that title is already claimed by Grassroots Go, headed by such worthies as tom pursglove, phillip hollobone and that wellighborough twat whose name escape me, plus nige falang
Similar threads
