Well, London can no longer claim to be *special* for the shitness of its food. Not even Mansfield can, I'll wager.
And that's not all down to the East India Company colonial adventure...
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
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And that's not all down to the East India Company colonial adventure...
weltweit
Well-Known Member
no doubt the pig-fucker from next door popped round and had a word
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
I have a vague recollection of one of the far left parties (can't remember if it was the SWP, WRP or what) having "a socialist United States of Europe" in their manifesto in the 80s.
I'm also left wondering if clarkson is taking the piss, or is playing a subtle game to look as if he's supporting ham-face while saying stuff that will push a few more people in to voting 'leave'...
gosub
~#
If you actually read his articles he's been consistently pro EU for years
I have a vague recollection of one of the far left parties (can't remember if it was the SWP, WRP or what) having "a socialist United States of Europe" in their manifesto in the 80s.
I'm also left wondering if clarkson is taking the piss, or is playing a subtle game to look as if he's supporting ham-face while saying stuff that will push a few more people in to voting 'leave'...
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
I try where possible to avoid reading anything he writes or listening to anything he says. it's better for the blood pressure that way.
And having said that, I'm still not sure if he ever means what he says, or is trolling.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
bit of both really. And in the end the results the same. He'll still be playing the 'comedy' racist eu or no eu
newbie
undisambiguated
This is interesting
Current bureaucracy free labour mobility is based on EU membership, and thus geographic proximity and shared, modern, European identity.
Maybe, post-Brexit, there should be no preferred countries of origin for free movement economic migrants. Everybody from everywhere will be treated entirely evenly. That's certainly a possibility.
Alternatively labour migration policy could be based on, emphasise and allow free movement between:
historic and heritage ties with those three countries in particular;
the Commonwealth as a whole;
something else?
So what do people here think?
there's been a theme emerging amongst mainstream Out campaigners that inward migration should be based on "the freedom to draw specialist skills from a global talent pool" (leave.eu) and family ties rather than from the EU. I've been wondering whether this is a fig-leaf to cover simple xenophobia or represents a genuine cross-ethnic welcome.
(with obligatory picture of royal parasite). That heritage based approach is true of the majority of Commonwealth countries. It's not clear why the survey concentrates on only those countries, as all Commonwealth citizens have an enduring and significant relationship with this country. Diaspora based family ties are spread throughout the Commonwealth.
Those countries are, I suppose, mostly perceived as being white (as are EU countries), but that's changing in the UK and Canada in particular and presumably the others to a greater or lesser extent.
Current bureaucracy free labour mobility is based on EU membership, and thus geographic proximity and shared, modern, European identity.
Maybe, post-Brexit, there should be no preferred countries of origin for free movement economic migrants. Everybody from everywhere will be treated entirely evenly. That's certainly a possibility.
Alternatively labour migration policy could be based on, emphasise and allow free movement between:
historic and heritage ties with those three countries in particular;
the Commonwealth as a whole;
something else?
So what do people here think?
youngian
Well-Known Member
Commonwealth is used as a dog whistle to UKIP supporters for white English speakers. I'm not sure Kippers have thought through the consequences of their party's equality of immigration policy; even lower paid farm workers from Bangladesh or Pakistan cutting lettuces in the field. The Commonwealth is a networking organisation and doesn't even resemble a free trade zone. The Brexiters are the inheritors of the League of Empire Loyalists who yearn for the days when the uppity natives were there to serve the white man and the British didn't have to sit on the same size chairs as Johnny Foreigner Frogs and Krauts. We won two world wars, a World Cup and had an empire don't you know. And Canada chose its economic destiny with the US at the turn of the 20th century. The idea of reviving failed Edwardian concepts of imperial/Commonwealth federation in the 21st are fantasies of the terminally deluded.
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It seems to me that with ideology being so muddy on both sides of the vote (i.e. all points on the political spectrum can lay claim to both yes and no being the better option), it is a particularly difficult decision to make on ideological grounds. I wonder if this is why I seem to observe people approaching it with a certain amount of bemusement and a tendency to focus on the minutiae of how it will affect their immediate lives more than most other votes I have experienced.
For me, I have no idea whether the people writ large will be better off in or out of the EU. Seriously, no idea at all in spite of all the reasonable arguments made in this thread. But I do know that my job will become incredibly tedious and annoying for a good five years post an exit. So believe me, that is a big pull towards staying in.
For me, I have no idea whether the people writ large will be better off in or out of the EU. Seriously, no idea at all in spite of all the reasonable arguments made in this thread. But I do know that my job will become incredibly tedious and annoying for a good five years post an exit. So believe me, that is a big pull towards staying in.
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
My life will possibly be quite adversely effected post brexit too, whilst the issues it may create for me may come across as first world problems, the way pro brexiters respond with guff and guffaw, dismissing any suggestion that it may restrict my freedom of travel across france and spain (two places I have family), as absolutely ridiculous, is somewhat infuriating. After all, we are British don't you know.
The sheer arrogance displayed by the out side I hope will lose them a lot of votes (I'm pro, if you hadn't worked that out).
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newbie
undisambiguated
Just the opposite. Commonwealth ties mean far more to the 100's of millions of non-white citizens than to the relatively few white ones.
It does not bother me that the plugs are different
Odd that we haven't seen that as a scare story. (Or did I miss it?)
I'm pondering faking up a draft Directive just to watch the outers scream "They're trying to stop Britain being special!!!"
Yes dear. Special. With Needs.
youngian
Well-Known Member
Fixed that
When the word Commonwealth is evoked it's not to float the idea of open immigration with Nigeria to UKIP and Tory right voters. Even among the Oxbridge educated elites of the Commonwealth the idea it will morph into a trade and social federation with Britain as its centre is laughable.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Don't do that.
youngian
Well-Known Member
No don't do that, I tried out Stewart Lee's "Brussels is going to make us wear hard hats so we don't offend Muslims" on a Kipper relative as an obvious illustrative joke but he bought it.
Not even with an acrostic? First letter of each paragraph spells "This is fake you daft kipper"?
No
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Clarkson said recently in his column that he wanted to see one Europe with one currency, one army and one electrical plug!
newbie
undisambiguated
no-one here is a kipper. Most are capable of reading an article that suggests over half those surveyed in the UK want live and work restrictions removed for those specific Commonwealth countries. It's you using Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nigeria for dog whistle politics, not me. I'm just trying to find out what those who propose leaving want in terms of labour migration policy.
So he is trying to drive people to vote "out"?
youngian
Well-Known Member
Brexiter immigration policies vary, free marketeers like Lord Lawson would be happy for more immigration and would argue that EU free movement impedes the brightest and best from the rest of the world bringing their skills to the UK. Most like UKIP want employers to demonstrate they have a labour shortage in order to justify employing overseas labour. In reality, it will be business as usual but that's not really what its core of far right fellow travellers want to hear. Brexit for them is an opportunity to close the country's border and throw out the foreigners. Some people have a genuine grievance in housing and wage depression and see the immigrants as the root cause. Others are just the kid at back of the class that pulls legs of spiders. Farage has to steer a tricky course to endulge his coalition of supporters; libertarian free marketeers and racist/nationalist nut jobs have a different view of the world.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I know quite a few people working in scientific research positions and they are fearful of the effects of an exit on science funding and ease of international collaboration.
Does anyone find much of significance to disagree with here?
Debunking the myths about British science after an EU exit
Does anyone find much of significance to disagree with here?
Debunking the myths about British science after an EU exit
gosub
~#
While it covers the Swiss model, it doesn't cover the Norway option. Why?....cos Norway,an EFTA member, is a fully paid up part of the EU science programme.
Scientists for Britain – UK scientists concerned that the EU uses science for political gain. International cooperation can continue outside of EU constraints.
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ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
No one invented shit before the Maastricht treaty. Fact!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
As far as I can see, the problems that Switzerland encountered were related to their immigration policies. Is it unreasonable to suggest that the UK could find itself in a similar position? The point of the "case study" seems to be to demonstrate that while non-EU countries can participate in these schemes, it's conditional. In other words if they don't comply with EU conditions they're out.
Also: I was curious to see who "Scientists for Britain" are.
It seems to be 4 people, at least, who will put their names to it. Not much indication of how widely they are supported.
I note that one of those four is not a scientist but graduated in Political history, works in venture capital and was adviser to Michael Gove. Another is a conservative parliamentary candidate.
About Us – Scientists for Britain
teuchter
je suis teuchter
This addresses zero of the points argued in that article.
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