Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[butchersapron]

So I haven't been following the thread closely. Have we discussed whether it's a coincidence that the recent white supremacist terrorist attack took place at the height of the poisonous anti-immigrant atmosphere created by the right wing Leave campaign?

No. Nothing happens unless you are there. Making fucking banal points that reveal that you think everyone else is too thick to have made.

 

[magneze]

Any thoughts on this? Anyone?

There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it

It's the third time it's been posted.

 

[andysays]

Any thoughts on this? Anyone?

There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it

It's popped up on various threads previously, and while it's strictly true that it's not legally binding (most British referendums have been advisory, because Parliament is sovereign, not the people), the political consequences of not following through with some form of Brexit would be even worse for the Tories than the position they now find themselves in because of having the referendum.

The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It's the third time it's been posted.

What's your view then pogo?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...

Really?

 

[butchersapron]

The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.

So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?

 

[magneze]

What's your view then pogo?

It's true but so what? Is that going to happen? Doubt it.

 

[two sheds]

So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?

Somebody made the point earlier that all they need to do is extend the period where we actually leave by going into protracted negotiations.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It's true but so what? Is that going to happen? Doubt it.

I've absolutely no idea that's why i'm asking. Is it true or not?

 

[andysays]

The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.

Yeah, you're right. The author of the original piece says this

What happens next in the event of a vote to leave is therefore a matter of politics not law. It will come down to what is politically expedient and practicable.

and the BI author simply ignores that because it gets in the way of an exciting story

 

[butchersapron]

So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?

The piece that it is based on? Yeah. 100% correct. But irrelevant. Like laws about taking sheep over london bridge.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[gosub]

Somebody made the point earlier that all they need to do is extend the period where we actually leave by going into protracted negotiations.

On a leave vote pound and euro do drop against the dollar... Oil in dollars limits the amount of possible procrastination.

 

[Azrael]

It's popped up on various threads previously, and while it's strictly true that it's not legally binding (most British referendums have been advisory, because Parliament is sovereign, not the people), the political consequences of not following through with some form of Brexit would be even worse for the Tories than the position they now find themselves in because of having the referendum.

The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...

And, of course, the Westminster parliament's only "sovereign" for as long as the courts (or the people) accept it is: flouting the popular will's an excellent way to expose their "sovereignty" for the chimera it is. Even Dicey accepted that popular sovereignty was, ultimately, supreme.

Finally doing away with legal positivism would be at least one positive outcome from the whole fiasco.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah fuck you dicey and legal positivism. Listen to this lad, he knows the score.

 

[belboid]

Interesting pice on when we can expect the results, and how to try to interpret the early ones How the EU referendum result will emerge in the hours after polls close

 

[nino_savatte]

Warsi jumps ship. Somehow, she never seemed that committed in the first place.
Baroness Sayeeda Warsi defects from Leave to Remain

 

[Mr Moose]

Looking like "winners" isn't a policy mechanism though, is it?

They will be driving the bus when policy is formed.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

They will be driving the bus when policy is formed.

What the fuck does any of this even mean?

 

[Mr Moose]

What the fuck does any of this even mean?

It's not really difficult to understand. A leave vote is a massive win for the right. No one would even notice any of left were onboard.

Those populist intolerant voices that propel leave are going to exercise their power. They won't be able to change neo-liberalism so what will satiate them? People on benefits, the Human Rights act, further anti Union legislation?.. Politics will shift further to the right.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It's not really difficult to understand. A leave vote is a massive win for the right. No one would even notice any of left were onboard.

Those populist intolerant voices that propel leave are going to exercise their power. They won't be able to change neo-liberalism so what will satiate them? People on benefits, the Human Rights act, further anti Union legislation?.. Politics will shift further to the right.

Ok lets get specific then. Who precisely is going to do what, and how are they going to get the votes to push it through parliament?

 

[teqniq]

You don't think that a new Tory leadership this soon after a general election might create a crisis of legitimacy for the government? ...

They have had a crisis of legitimacy from day one imo, but I take your point. Hopefully the best thing to come out of this car crash will be further implosion of the tories, please.

 

[dilberto]

The position of the some EU remain supporters appears to be that remaining in the EU is the best defence the British people have against their own national democracy perhaps reflecting the dominant secular middle class's increasing disdain for their own national culture, people and popular opinion and subsequently their increasing distrust of national democracy.

It seems that for many EU supporters particularly those on the secular left the attraction of the EU is that it offers the prospect of making Britain a state ruled by unaccountable international institutions and courts dominated by people with views similar to their own and which have the power to determine the rights and obligations of British citizens based on international treaties and to oversee, overrule and circumvent national democracies in ways favoured by the left but which they would be unable to do so by conventional democratic means, a secular mirror image of Iran's religiously managed democracy perhaps?

But to trust an undemocratic and unaccountable authority like the EU over a national democracy is to trust to dictatorship, just because an unaccountable authority favours our preferences and interests at a given time does not guarantee that it will always do so and by placing our trust in such a body over national democracy we renounce the liberty to influence how that authority of governance is exercised in the future and any protection which democratic popular consent provides should that authority become oppressive.

 

[redsquirrel]

The position of the some EU remain supporters appears to be that remaining in the EU is the best defence the British people have against their own national democracy perhaps reflecting the dominant secular middle class's increasing disdain for their own national culture, people and popular opinion and subsequently their increasing distrust of national democracy.

It seems that for many EU supporters particularly those on the secular left the attraction of the EU is that it offers the prospect of making Britain a state ruled by unaccountable international institutions and courts dominated by people with views similar to their own and which have the power to determine the rights and obligations of British citizens based on international treaties and to oversee, overrule and circumvent national democracies in ways favoured by the left but which they would be unable to do so by conventional democratic means, a secular mirror image of Iran's religiously managed democracy perhaps?

Sorry but this is almost as bad as some of the stuff Mr Moose, Coolfonz etc have come out with. If the Remain voters you're claiming exist they certainly aren't the majority of those on U75.

My bother is going to vote Remain because (i) he thinks that the EU will help protect workers rights and act as a break to the Tories and (ii) he believes that voting remain will boost anti-immigration feelings. Now I think he's wrong on both accounts but the idea that but he want's Britain to be ruled by 'unaccountable international institutions' is frankly bullshit.

Also are there many EU supporters? I don't think so. Repeating myself again, it's daft, actually worse than that it's counterproductive, to confuse a vote for Remain with a fundamental support for the EU.

EDIT: That said I agree that liberals have always been sacred of giving people too much democracy.

 

[Dogsauce]

We have a national democracy? News to me.

(...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)

 

[Pickman's model]

We have a national democracy? News to me.

(...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)

No, it's a NOTIONAL democracy. dilberto just a letter out

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Has Corbyn said anything clear about his policy in the event of a leave vote?

I'm just trying to work out what happens if leave wins, and Boris scrags pigfucker Dave.

If there were to be a general election before article 50 was triggered, which seems at least possible, he'd be in an interesting position.

 

[brogdale]

We have a national democracy? News to me.

(...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)

But even if each one of those were elected with the most scrupulous application of PR...it would not alter the reality of financialised capital's sovereignty over debt states.

 

[ska invita]

Has Corbyn said anything clear about his policy in the event of a leave vote?

I'm just trying to work out what happens if leave wins, and Boris scrags pigfucker Dave.

If there were to be a general election before article 50 was triggered, which seems at least possible, he'd be in an interesting position.

Have been wondering this myself. In the Scottish referendum the SNP dominated parliamentary politics and wanted to leave.... Labour would be left without the legitimacy to implement the long process of leaving. One thing I'm certain is that in the short to medium term Boris and Farage would get a massive power and legitimacy boost.... They will be the figure heads and engineers of the exit.