The UK Should adopt Islamic Culture?

[Aldebaran]

And what do you think the UK can learn from the Islamic World that would be of value?

I can't even bother. Start with visiting a good library.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's what i just said, that it developed out of the condtions at that time - but by endorsing it as the form of redistribution and extending its functioning into the future it helped ensure the ongoing need for alms to be collected. Its existence depends on there being povery - and any pro-mercantile type economy such as that of early Islam is going to produce poverty. Alms giving as the neccesarry counterpart to rule by the rich and the powerful.

There is no pro-mercantile economy root in Islam. Islam is a religion. That religion commands to take care of the weaker/deprived/orphaned/widowed members of society.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I have. The Quran was definitely the better-written book, and was much more convincing than most of Rushdie's work.

I once started with reading Rushdie. In a translation. I fell asleep over it. Hence, since everyone seems to talk about him as such a great writer, I assume you must read it in English to get all that exited over his art.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

There is no pro-mercantile economy root in Islam. Islam is a religion. That religion commands to take care of the weaker/deprived/orphaned/widowed members of society.

salaam.

I disagree - the various rules prohibiting excessive profit alone are themselves indications of the pro-commerical nature of early Islam - it endorses this state of affirs as being those willed by Allah.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Mercantile economies existed in that region for some 4,000 years before Islam came along, butchersapron.

 

[butchersapron]

Mercantile economy existed in that region for some 4,000 years before Islam came along, butchersapron.

So early Islam developed out of a mercantile economy and mercantile assumptions.

 

[Aldebaran]

I disagree - the various rules prohibiting excessive profit alone are themselves indications of the pro-commerical nature of early Islam - it endorses this state of affirs as being those willed by Allah.

Of course not.
Those commands form a critique and condemnation of the Meccan pre-Islamic social situation.
Islam is a religion. It is not an economical system.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course not what?

And there's a glaring contradiction in your postion that Islam was a critique of certain economic conditions but at the same time has nothing at to with 'economics' or contains any economic influences.

 

[Aldebaran]

So early Islam developed out of a mercantile economy and mercantile assumptions.

Islam did not develop out of any economy (I really don't know where you get that). It rose within an environment where the ancient tribal affiliations and all that is connected with that system were undermined by the rise of a local ego-centrism focussed on mercantile profit with neglect of social obligations. Induced by the mere fact that Mecca over a rather short time span became a pre-Islamic religious centre of gods endorsed and promoted by those who had the most profit economical from the trade.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

You mix up the pre-Islamic Mecca with the Islamic.

salaam.

 

[invisibleplanet]

So early Islam developed out of a mercantile economy and mercantile assumptions.

No. And it's likely that mercantile economies existed prior to Early Bronze Age, but I haven't got around to studying that yet My hunch is that they did.

Back to your point - you might attempt to say that is true of Judaism and Christianity also - but your hypothesis that Islam (or Judaism or Christianity) 'developed out of' mercantilism would be incorrect since they are not economic systems.

As a religious system guided in it's root by the holy books of Judaism (count the number of references to 'The Book' and 'The Taurat' in the Qu'ran), you'd be better to look at the Halachic governances, since that's where the religious edicts governing the attitudes of followers regarding charity is taken from. No surprises then that both Judaism and Islam adopt the same approach to social attitudes to welfare.

 

[invisibleplanet]

You mix up the pre-Islamic Mecca with the Islamic.

salaam.

He does. Might butcherspron be better looking at the two centuries (approximate) of tribal wars between Arabian Jewish and Arabian Christian and Arabian non-Abrahamic tribal leaders in his attempt to discover 'what' it is that Islam 'developed out of'?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I once started with reading Rushdie. In a translation. I fell asleep over it. Hence, since everyone seems to talk about him as such a great writer, I assume you must read it in English to get all that exited over his art.

salaam.

From what I can make out, Rushdie's work has the same soporific effect whichever language you read it in.
His prose is often beautiful, but beauty alone can't substitute for a good story (IMHO).
The only one of his books I actually enjoyed reading was "Midnight's Children", reading the rest felt more like a punishment.

 

[butchersapron]

Islam did not develop out of any economy (I really don't know where you get that). It rose within an environment where the ancient tribal affiliations and all that is connected with that system were undermined by the rise of a local ego-centrism focussed on mercantile profit with neglect of social obligations. Induced by the mere fact that Mecca over a rather short time span became a pre-Islamic religious centre of gods endorsed and promoted by those who had the most profit economical from the trade.

salaam.

This says that it did develp out of an economy you realise. Not that it doesn't.

 

[butchersapron]

He does. Might butcherspron be better looking at the two centuries (approximate) of tribal wars between Arabian Jewish and Arabian Christian and Arabian non-Abrahamic tribal leaders in his attempt to discover 'what' it is that Islam 'developed out of'?

Islam developed out of real material conditions. You've agreed that mercantilism was one of those material conditions. I've not contended that there was not others.

 

[butchersapron]

No. And it's likely that mercantile economies existed prior to Early Bronze Age, but I haven't got around to studying that yet My hunch is that they did.

Back to your point - you might attempt to say that is true of Judaism and Christianity also - but your hypothesis that Islam (or Judaism or Christianity) 'developed out of' mercantilism would be incorrect since they are not economic systems.

As a religious system guided in it's root by the holy books of Judaism (count the number of references to 'The Book' and 'The Taurat' in the Qu'ran), you'd be better to look at the Halachic governances, since that's where the religious edicts governing the attitudes of followers regarding charity is taken from. No surprises then that both Judaism and Islam adopt the same approach to social attitudes to welfare.

Again, the adaptation of Judaic roots to the material conditions (including mercantilism) of early Islam doesn't in any way mean that early islam was not influenced by mercantilism or that it didn't incorporarte pro-mercantile ideas and influences. I think it did. All those commercial laws and regulations meant something.

 

[Astramax]

Last time round, it was science and technology.
That "zero" thing.
al-Gebra taught us quite a lot, too.
And then there's medicine.

So before 700 AD there was no Science and Technology? Or medicine or a concept of the number Zero?

Ever heard of Pythagoras, Erietostonies and all the other Greeks and basically invited the modern world?

I think you are confusing Arabs and Muslims.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Early Islam incorporated a similar approach to social duty as it's Judaic roots as a social necessity in order to attribute social responsiblity for welfare issues to it's adherents within the existant mercantile economic system. In political terms, Islam, in common with many other religions, could be considered to be an early form of socialism.

 

[Astramax]

I once started with reading Rushdie. In a translation. I fell asleep over it. Hence, since everyone seems to talk about him as such a great writer, I assume you must read it in English to get all that exited over his art.

salaam.

I found both to be immeasurably disappointing and dull beyond belief. Neither lived up to the hype.

 

[butchersapron]

Early Islam incorporated a similar approach to social duty as it's Judaic roots as a social necessity in order to attribute social responsiblity for welfare issues to it's adherents within the existant mercantile economic system. In political terms, Islam, like other religions, can be considered an early form of socialism.

A socialism that endorses private property and private ownership of the land and the means of social production - and further endorses the use of both of these for private profit. A blairite third way fabian type socialism at best - no type of socialism in reality. Surely an early socialism would attack the system that produces poverty and the need to give alms.

 

[Jonti]

So before 700 AD there was no Science and Technology? Or medicine or a concept of the number Zero?

Ever heard of Pythagoras, Erietostonies and all the other Greeks and basically invited the modern world?

I think you are confusing Arabs and Muslims.

There's no doubt that Muslim scholars preserved and added to the knowledge of the Greeks while Europe languished in the post-Roman Dark Ages.

That was the point being made, as I understood it.

 

[invisibleplanet]

*coughs* And with the co-operation that arose between Iberian Islamic and Judaic scholars during the early and middle Medieval age in Spain, this information was made available to the Christian west

 

[yield]

There's no doubt that Muslim scholars preserved and added to the knowledge of the Greeks while Europe languished in the post-Roman Dark Ages.

That was the point being made, as I understood it.

Exactly, many texts were lost in Greek and Latin fortunately some had been translated into Arabic and Persian. And there were great minds in the Islamic Empires, Ibn Khaldun and Avicenna (Ali Al Husayn Ibn-Sina) to name but two. Avicenna was discussed on In Our Time last week, he had a real fondness for wine and women.

 

[Aldebaran]

There's no doubt that Muslim scholars preserved and added to the knowledge of the Greeks while Europe languished in the post-Roman Dark Ages.

Only someone with no clue about European history would think otherwise.
To be correct though it must be said that several, mostly Syrian, Christians did their part of the translations leading to preservation and in later periods re-introduction in the West of Greek philosophy.

This is only one aspect of Muslim contributions to what today's Westerners most of the time take for their culture's achievements

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

This says that it did develp out of an economy you realise. Not that it doesn't.

No it doesn't.
Rising *within* a certain context is not rising *based on* or *from*.
Why can't you make that rather simple distinction?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Early Islam incorporated a similar approach to social duty as it's Judaic roots as a social necessity in order to attribute social responsiblity for welfare issues to it's adherents within the existant mercantile economic system. In political terms, Islam, in common with many other religions, could be considered to be an early form of socialism.

"Judaic roots" is from Islamic point of view completely incorrect.
Islam recognizes earlier prophets and earlier revelations of the other Abrahamic religions, but states that these messages were corrupted by human interventions. Hence Muhammed received a renewal of the revelations = the Message of God in its original form, and not for a defined group of humans but for all of humanity.

About the reference to socialism: A superficial interpretation I don't agree with, despite the fact that there are no doubt similarities between social aspects of Islam and those of socialist ideals.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Islam developed out of real material conditions. You've agreed that mercantilism was one of those material conditions. I've not contended that there was not others.

Islam developed out of the revelations the prophet Muhammed received and the traditions on and about his way of explaining and living them.
Even if you don't believe he was a prophet and/or don't believe in God, you can't trace Islam back to anyone else but Muhammed.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

I just did. So did Invisible planet. So did you.

 

[invisibleplanet]

About the reference to socialism: A superficial interpretation I don't agree with, despite the fact that there are no doubt similarities between social aspects of Islam and those of socialist ideals.

salaam.

I did say 'could be considered', not 'should be considered'.

And yes, no doubt about it, there are similarities between social aspects of Islam and a developing socialist ideal (in an historical sense), but yes, there are also disparities.

 

[butchersapron]

No it doesn't.
Rising *within* a certain context is not rising *based on* or *from*.
Why can't you make that rather simple distinction?

salaam.

I can, but i don't in this case because i think it's an utterly fatuous and false distiniction, based on idealistic assumptions that are simply not true in any real sense.