The UK Should adopt Islamic Culture?

[Johnny Canuck3]

I could really go some Aloo gobi, saag aloo, bhindi bhaji, and a peshwari right now.

I agree with Dr.Bari on a few points.

I also object to the lack of calling the IRA 'Catholic' terrorists, but calling terrorists who are Muslim 'Islamic' terrorists.

I agree with his itijihad on adultery.

And I disagree with Dr.Bari on a few points.

Abortion should not be made more difficult - better sex education in an attempt to avoid unwanted pregnancies + my religion doesn't place the needs of the foetus over the needs of the mother-to-be, and so given there are different religious opinions on this, I think it best that religion stays out of this, and just does the best it can to prepare it's flock for assuming the responsiblities of parenthood, or supporting those who find themselves in a difficult situation - male and female, in the case of unwanted pregnancies, without pressurising them to have a child against their wills.

It's all well and good to say Britain needs more morality - he gives an example of sex before marriage - but Muslim teens have just as much a problem with STD's as non-Muslim teens.

Holocaust day is not about ALL massacres, but a eurocentric day of remembrance for the victims of the Nazi holocaust. If Muslims believe there should be an all inclusive day, then let their enthusiasm lead an action group to form such a day to remember all massacres and genocides, and include the Nazi Holocaust in this new day of remembrance with others.

His viewpoint doesn't surprise me - it's little different from the Christian or Jewish conservative, 50-year old+ opinions on life, the universe, and everything. Dr. Bari does sound old-fashioned, and not particularly liberal, but there's a lot of non-Muslims like that in GB.

You left out the parts about the arranged marriages, the ban on homosexuality, and the stoning.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Just to add a little extra on the topic of your extraordinary ignorance, as demonstrated by the original post: muslims in Britain come from a variety of different cultures. The cultures of their home countries may have been influenced by islam, but there is no one 'islamic culture'. It doesn't make sense to even talk about that.

Then Dr. Bari is talking nonsense.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I know.

To think they died for free speech.



Just for some johnny foreigner to come here. Come here and USE it.

Like astramax, you mean?

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Like all those people from all over the British Empire who came over to help and put their lives on the line.

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/English/Collections/OnlineResources/RWWC/Themes/1102/

Over 15,000 Caribbean soldiers fought in the British West Indies Regiment in World War I. Double this number served during World War II, while many others carried out essential work in Britain.​

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...ica_africa0s_world_war_ii_veterans/html/1.stm

This is the untold story of the forgotten heroes of the Commonwealth," says Zimbabwean artist Raphael Chikukwa, the curator of the exhibition​

Seeing some of the mass cemeteries around Monte Cassino and the number of Indian graves in Italy was quite an eye opener. History books have ignored the contribution of those who came over to "fight for freedom."

Sorry...rant over.

 

[chymaera]

Yes it is necessary.

Tell us the views he espoused. I'm beginning to think that you daren't tell us because the reality is different from the chymæric interpretation.

No proof is necessary. If anyone wishes to change the laws and rules that govern all the population do it by putting candidates up for election.

 

[Dillinger4]

Like astramax, you mean?

Nobody is telling him to shut up.

 

[_angel_]

In Dr Bari's view, suicide bombers are victims as well as aggressors. "I deal with emotionally damaged children," he explains. "Children come to hate when they don't get enough care and love. They are probably bullied, it makes a young person angry and vulnerable.

This is just blatant psycho babble. How does he know the 7/7 bombers were bullied?

He works in a special school and prob thinks all those kids problems come from their home environment. I wouldn't want someone with those views working at my kids special school.

 

[nino_savatte]

There is a lot of anti Islamic feeling in the UK at the moment and comparing the UK to Nazi Germany is hardly going to win this guy and the group that he heads much sympathy.

I think you've either been living on Mars or you've had your head up your arse but to deny that there is Islamophobia and to euphemise it as "anti-Islamic feeling" is totally wrong, but obviously in keeping with your leading OP.

 

[_angel_]

I think you've either been living on Mars or you've had your head up your arse but to deny that there is Islamophobia and to euphemise it as "anti-Islamic feeling" is totally wrong, but obviously in keeping with your leading OP.

To make comparisons with Nazi Germany is incorrect and unhelpful in the extreme.
Are Muslims being denied citizenship? Sacked en masse from public posts? Made to wear yellow stars? Etc etc??

 

[nino_savatte]

To make comparisons with Nazi Germany is incorrect and unhelpful in the extreme.
Are Muslims being denied citizenship? Sacked en masse from public posts? Made to wear yellow stars? Etc etc??

All the same, there is Islamophobia in this country and the amount of anti-Muslim scare stories in the media grow in number each week. This feeds a cycle of suspicion and mistrust that can only lead to one thing: violence and intolerance.

Maybe the comparisons to Nazi Germany were dramatic but he has a point and who is to say that such a thing cannot happen again? This time to Muslims...or anyone who looks vaguely 'Islamic'?

 

[treelover]

I may be wrong but I am sure that Muslims primarily give only to Muslim charities, (as afaik do some other religions)such as the above mentioned earthquake fund, not a good thing imo,

You also neglected to mention the Pakistani earthquake in that list of natural disasters, which was almost 100% funded by the Islamic community (despite causing equivocable amounts of lost lives to the Tsunami or any Ethiopean famine).

 

[_angel_]

All the same, there is Islamophobia in this country and the amount of anti-Muslim scare stories in the media grow in number each week. This feeds a cycle of suspicion and mistrust that can only lead to one thing: violence and intolerance.

Maybe the comparisons to Nazi Germany were dramatic but he has a point and who is to say that such a thing cannot happen again? This time to Muslims...or anyone who looks vaguely 'Islamic'?

You could say the same thing about benefit claimants and single mums but it doesn't mean to say we are in a state like Nazi Germany.

People really don't help their cause by gross exaggeration.

 

[Dillinger4]

I may be wrong but I am sure that Muslims primarily give only to Muslim charities, (as afaik do some other religions)such as the above mentioned earthquake fund, not a good thing imo,

Have you got a source for this?

 

[rich!]

And what do you think the UK can learn from the Islamic World that would be of value?

Last time round, it was science and technology.
That "zero" thing.
al-Gebra taught us quite a lot, too.
And then there's medicine.

 

[nino_savatte]

You could say the same thing about benefit claimants and single mums but it doesn't mean to say we are in a state like Nazi Germany.

People really don't help their cause by gross exaggeration.

I can still understand the reasons for his reaction. I don't necessarily agree with the way he expressed himself.

 

[invisibleplanet]

To make comparisons with Nazi Germany is incorrect and unhelpful in the extreme.
Are Muslims being denied citizenship? Sacked en masse from public posts? Made to wear yellow stars? Etc etc??

The events you mentioned happened after a prolonged and deliberate campaign of demonisation. The comparisons made are to the prolonged campaign of demonisation, and as such, are neither incorrect nor unhelpful, being representative of a minority's fear in our country. This being said, these fears need to be addressed with sensitivity, discussed openly, and not dismissed lightly.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I can still understand the reasons for his reaction. I don't necessarily agree with the way he expressed himself.

Quite so.

 

[butchersapron]

Last time round, it was science and technology.
That "zero" thing.
al-Gebra taught us quite a lot, too.
And then there's medicine.

Surely that's to do with the cultures of the societies in which these developments took place - not just because of 'Islam' - unless the argument is that Islam dominated the culture to such an extent that the two (or more) factors are essentially inseperable. In which case, the same would then also logically apply to the negative aspects of Islam. But i only really hear the opposite argument being applied in these negative cases - that these clearly developed out of the local cultures alone and had nothing to with Islam.

 

[Aldebaran]

read the article and work it out boy.

No thank you. I don't open links to other websites.
If you make a thread (which inevitably includes its title), to explain what you talk about is your responsibility, not mine.

salaam.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I’m saying he is a hypocrite, books he agrees with (i.e those calling for homosexuals to be hung and unmarried mothers stoned to death) he calls freedom of expression and allows them to be sold in a mosque he chairs. A rather long and dull novel buy some guy he does not like that he find offensive he wants band.

Do you find it that hard to spot the issue with that?

I do.

Seems to me that the guy would have an argument that would basically go something like this:
"Our holy book tells us x, y and z are wrong, the holy book of the Christians and the holy books of the Jews tell them the same things, we therefore allow books that comment on or elucidate the views of our holy book. We don't, however, like books whose deliberate intent is to insult our beliefs, and reserve the right to let that be known publicly."

In other words, the same argument that every cleric makes for the prejudices espoused by their own religion, nothing more, nothing less, and anyone who can't spot that is obviously what I like to call "hard of thinking".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I bet you have read neither the Koran or Salman Rushdie.

I have. The Quran was definitely the better-written book, and was much more convincing than most of Rushdie's work.

 

[butchersapron]

On the obligation to give alms - sounds like a recognition that the sort of society (mercantile, commerical based) that Islam developed out of produced poverty and should continue to do so if it operated effectively. It could very easily be read as an edorsement of that situation rather than an attack on it. See the growth of wafq for how what on first glance appear to be socially minded charitable initiatives often are in fact merely manouveres by the rich and powerful.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And what do you think the UK can learn from the Islamic World that would be of value?

We've already learnt quite a bit, stuff like astronomy, metallurgy, chemistry and some forms of mathematics.

 

[Aldebaran]

In other words, the same argument that every cleric makes for the prejudices espoused by their own religion, nothing more, nothing less, and anyone who can't spot that is obviously what I like to call "hard of thinking".

I don't think that person is an Islamic scholar.
Why everyone happily jumps to such conclusion - based on nothing - whenever some Muslim makes some statements, is a riddle to me.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

On the obligation to give alms - sounds like a recognition that the sort of society (mercantile, commerical based) that Islam developed out of produced poverty and should continue to do so if it operated effectively. It could very easily be read as an edorsement of that situation rather than an attack on it. See the growth of wafq for how what on first glance appear to be socially minded charitable initiatives often are in fact merely manouveres by the rich and powerful.

No it doesn't. It was in fact a reaction to the existing social crisis in Mecca at the time of the Prophet. (How *you* want to read these commands is your responsiblility only.)

salaam.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So the UK doesn’t do charity then?

Are you telling me that the Islamic world gives more to Africa, or victims of natural disasters like the Tsunami a couple of Boxing days ago?

^^^^^
Whoosh
The sound of you missing the point.

The point is that for Muslims and Jews there is a religious obligation on the individual to, as Christians say, "cast your bread upon the waters", with the obligation becoming greater as the wealth of the individual becomes greater. We're not talking about "one-off" appeals for causes, or about international development aid (much of which is "tied" in various ways so that it is spent on goods and/or services from the donor country), we're talking about an institutionalised system of personal charitable works, a social ideal that says "however little you have, someone will always be in greater need. If you are able to, then help them". It's an idea that is, unfortunately, not particularly widespread among modern western Christians.

 

[butchersapron]

No it doesn't. It was in fact a reaction to the existing social crisis in Mecca at the time of the Prophet. (How *you* want to read these commands is your responsiblility only.)

salaam.

That's what i just said, that it developed out of the condtions at that time - but by endorsing it as the form of redistribution and extending its functioning into the future it helped ensure the ongoing need for alms to be collected. Its existence depends on there being povery - and any pro-mercantile type economy such as that of early Islam is going to produce poverty. Alms giving as the neccesarry counterpart to rule by the rich and the powerful.

 

[two sheds]

Last time round, it was science and technology.
That "zero" thing.
al-Gebra taught us quite a lot, too.
And then there's medicine.

Yep, they came out of the Crusades showing themselves to be a much more civilised people at the time I think, too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

a good lashing would sort out our overcrowded prison problems

Unfortunately, it would also result in masochists committing crimes so that they could have the sexual gratification of being whipped.

 

[Aldebaran]

I may be wrong but I am sure that Muslims primarily give only to Muslim charities, (as afaik do some other religions)such as the above mentioned earthquake fund, not a good thing imo,

So you think organisations like the Red ross and the Red Crescent -to name one - don't cooperate?

salaam.