The UK Should adopt Islamic Culture?

[butchersapron]

"Judaic roots" is from Islamic point of view completely incorrect.

Really? So why were the prayers in early islam dircted to Jerusalam?

I'm suprised that IP hasn't come back at you on this one.

'is from Islamic point of view' - handy little get out.

 

[Aldebaran]

I can, but i don't in this case because i think it's an utterly fatuous and false distiniction, based on idealistic assumptions that are simply not true in any real sense.

This could with some imagination pass for an inventive attempt to clear the dilemma you brough upon yourself. That doesn't mean you make any more sense than you did previously.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

I did say 'could be considered', not 'should be considered'.

And yes, no doubt about it, there are similarities between social aspects of Islam and a developing socialist ideal (in an historical sense), but yes, there are also disparities.

What disparties?

 

[butchersapron]

This could with some imagination pass for an inventive attempt to clear the dilemma you brough upon yourself. That doesn't mean you make any more sense than you did previously.

salaam.

This could pass for a wriggle and attempted get out. Only to cynics though. You've not dealt with my point you know, as there is no dilemma. You've just asserted that i'm wrong. Tell me why.

 

[invisibleplanet]

There are disparities when we compare it to modern forms of socialism (as you already pointed out, butchersapron).

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

On the obligation to give alms - sounds like a recognition that the sort of society (mercantile, commerical based) that Islam developed out of produced poverty and should continue to do so if it operated effectively. It could very easily be read as an edorsement of that situation rather than an attack on it. See the growth of wafq for how what on first glance appear to be socially minded charitable initiatives often are in fact merely manouveres by the rich and powerful.

See now, that is quite an interesting thought. The o/p is deafening in his subsequent silence on the subject. I could ask as an alternative as to whether there isn't a certain inevitability to the well-off soothing their conciousness through misappropriation of sharing (some) wealth with those less well off, whether for spiritual or fiscal means. So basically arguing that alms-giving was intended to be an altruistic act that was co-opted as cover for exploiting those who you rely on perhaps?

 

[butchersapron]

There are disparities when we compare it to modern forms of socialism (as you already pointed out, butchersapron).

Are you going to challenge aldebran on his claim that Islm has no Judaic roots btw? If not, why not?

What are these disparities though?

Compare it to contemporary forms of socialism if you like, or pre-existing (i.e before Islam) forms. I belive that there were were some interesting experiments in Perisa not long before Islam started that were a bit harder edged than just calling mercantilism socialism.

 

[Aldebaran]

See now, that is quite an interesting thought.

Which doesn't fit an Islamic contexxt and which is not as much intersting as it is the obvious product of a mercantilist-focussed Western Capitalist mind.

I could ask as an alternative as to whether there isn't a certain inevitability to the well-off soothing their conciousness through misappropriation of sharing (some) wealth with those less well off, whether for spiritual or fiscal means.

No doubt for many that plays a role, also for Muslims who by doing so even forget it is not about "scoring points" but about living Islam like they should.

So basically arguing that alms-giving was intended to be an altruistic act that was co-opted as cover for exploiting those who you rely on perhaps?

Not in Islam.

salaam.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Which doesn't fit an Islamic contexxt and which is not as much intersting as it is the obvious product of a mercantilist-focussed Western Capitalist mind.

And your point is???

No doubt for many that plays a role, also for Muslims who by doing so even forget it is not about "scoring points" but about living Islam like they should.

Yes. And?

Not in Islam.

salaam.

In your interpretation, quite possibly. In someone else's, quite possibly. The question mark remains.

 

[nino_savatte]

Surely that's to do with the cultures of the societies in which these developments took place - not just because of 'Islam' - unless the argument is that Islam dominated the culture to such an extent that the two (or more) factors are essentially inseperable. In which case, the same would then also logically apply to the negative aspects of Islam. But i only really hear the opposite argument being applied in these negative cases - that these clearly developed out of the local cultures alone and had nothing to with Islam.

While that may be true to an extent, the simple fact is that Islam allowed the sciences to flourish, while Xtianity saw scientific enquiry as an affront to the nature of G*d (think of Galileo and you're almost there). I think you're playing fast and loose with the facts because you don't like the idea that early Islam could actually be more progressive than medieval Xtianity. Xtians thought that diseases were spread by "bad air" and smells. Islamic scholars looked elsewhere for answers and they also understood the need for hygiene. Bathing was seen as an activity of the weak and effete in Western European societies, whereas in the Byzantine Empire it was regarded as a normal activity. The Byzantine Empire (late 8th century onwards) was, like it or not, influenced by Islam: women covered their heads and icons were destroyed (though later reinstated by the Empress Irene in the late 800's).

 

[nino_savatte]

A socialism that endorses private property and private ownership of the land and the means of social production - and further endorses the use of both of these for private profit. A blairite third way fabian type socialism at best - no type of socialism in reality. Surely an early socialism would attack the system that produces poverty and the need to give alms.

You're nitpicking...and not for the first time. I take it, you're familiar with the time period that we're all talking about - ouias?

 

[Dr Jon]

I like the sentiment of the Australian position.

If you want to live in UK, you have to accept our traditions and way of life: if you have a problem with people binge-drinking, getting twisted on recreational drugs and partying 'til dawn, then you can fuck off...

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia ." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

 

[tangentlama]

In the light of the above, how do you explain the existence and allowance of the practice of Halachic Law and Beth Din (Jewish religious courts) in Australia, UK, and Canada?

THE London Beth Din will step into the dispute between Rabbi Yossi Engel and the Adelaide Hebrew Congregation (AHC) after both parties agreed this week to abide by a Din Torah from the British religious court.

After the Binding Arbitration Agreement was signed on Wednesday night, the Sydney Beth Din lifted a siruv (contempt finding) against the board of the Adelaide shul.

Arrangements have been made for a rabbi to travel to South Australia to take Shabbat services tomorrow and there will also be a rabbi at the AHC over Shavuot.

The Din Torah process will begin almost immediately, and is expected to take several weeks.

While there is an outside chance that a dayan (judge) will travel to Australia, it is more likely that video-conferencing will be used.

Sydney Beth Din registrar Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence today issued a statement saying the registrar of the London Beth Din has been informed of the dispute and has been sent a copy of the signed agreement.

Rabbi Lawrence told the AJN the agreement was brokered by the Rabbinical Council of Victoria (RCV), Organisation of Rabbis of Australasia, Executive Council of Australian Jewry and the Sydney Beth Din.

AHC spokesperson and board member Allen Bolafi described the breakthrough as “exceptionally good”.

“The congregation is delighted and we can all move forward.”


He said issues to be judged by the London Beth Din will include the status of Rabbi Engel’s contract, his conduct, and the quality of kashrut supervision in South Australia.

Bolafi said both the AHC and Rabbi Engel have agreed not to act on the outcome of an appeal now lodged with the Supreme Court of South Australia, whose finding is to be handed down imminently.

http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=3291

 

[Dr Jon]

In the light of the above, how do you explain the existence of Halachic Law and Beth Din (Jewish religious courts) in Australia, UK, and Canada?

Dunno. Probably a Zionist-Masonic conspiracy or summat...

Do these courts issue binding judgements compatible with the law of the host nation?

 

[tangentlama]

Dunno. Probably a Zionist-Masonic conspiracy or summat...

Do these courts issue binding judgements compatible with the law of the host nation?

They do. Placing a slab on someone who doesn't observe Shabbat is no longer practised in Jewish law.