The mother of the soldier who is being allowed to freak out on air.

[Fedayn]

Bus fare! You're a tight motherfucker

Just got better things to spend it on strangely enough.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Some twat of an editor from the Sun has been interviewed on the BBC. BBC viewers have overwhelmingly been in support of Brown so it seems to have backfired on the pricks somewhat.

Well you'd have hoped so. The latest cheapshots against Gordon MacBottler Jockbastard Ochaye MacBroonface from the Scum really are an insult to their readers intellegence (not that they have of it ).

 

[Fedayn]

She has delivered the curse of sleepless nights to Gordon Brown, I'm not sure if that's in the national interest, the only person she seems to care about is herself, and she's not taking very good care of that.

I don't think she's right on a number of things but I can well understand a mother lashing out at a time like this. You don't have to agree with someone's outlook to understand that.

 

[weltweit]

Well the said mother of the dead soldier has just been on the ITV evening news.

No sign of the publicity dying down yet awhile.

 

[Ralph Masters]

I don't think she's right on a number of things but I can well understand a mother lashing out at a time like this. You don't have to agree with someone's outlook to understand that.

I can't see why she thinks Gordon Brown should have sleepless nights because her son wasn't evacuated by helicopter, or for spelling Janes wrong, or for having scruffy handwriting. She has done herself and her son a great disservice, dragging his good name through mud

 

[Fedayn]

I can't see why she thinks Gordon Brown should have sleepless nights because her son wasn't evacuated by helicopter, or for spelling Janes wrong, or for having scruffy handwriting. She has done herself and her son a great disservice, dragging his good name through mud

Well Brown did support her son being sent there... But as I said, it's understandable that a mother lashes out at a time like this? You don't have to agree with her to see that surely?

 

[tim]

so the Sun are justified in exploiting this poor woman

Does this poor woman deserve to be patronised by you?

 

[untethered]

Just think what the Sun could do with a few more helicopters.

 

[Corax]

Eh?

Well what's your point? You've posted up a dictionary definition. Yes, that's the dictionary definition of 'warmonger'. You get a gold star.

 

[tim]

she wants to draw a line under the affair now, I wonder if anyone will respect her wishes

Gordon should draw it for her personally.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And why aren't there more helicopters? Because they're expensive. And the government doesn't want to spend the money? And why doesn't the government want to spend the money? Because it would mean putting taxes up. And why don't the government want to put taxes up? Because people don't like paying taxes.

It's not that simple.
It's all very well to talk about "more helicopters", and contrary to what you're saying there are more helicopters. Unfortunately many of them are Pumas from the current fleet, which are next to useless in the sort of daytime temperatures experienced in Helmand. Bringing new orders on-stream is time-consuming too, as the choppers have to be delivered, checked, and then shipped out.

Honestly, I feel compassion for anyone who loses a relative, but all this "brave heroes" shit is really getting on my tits. The vast majority of people who join the army do so because they want to - be that for a job, for the shits and giggles, or for a way out of Little Shitsville on the Crapper. They do not (as a rule) do it to lay down their lives defending our glorious nation. And if they do, they really wanna fucking educate themselves, because wars are fought for national economic and political interest - not as a last-ditch defence of the realm. The only remotely defensive war we've fought within recent memory was WWII, and I think we can safely say that that's atypical.

Thing is, most people who choose to become squaddies do so because it's the only game in town, and haven't been taught or shown how to carry out the kind of historical and political analysis you're crapping on about.
Oh, and you'll find that soldiers absolutely loathe all the "brave heroes" bullshit too.

So if you don't wanna take the government's dollar for getting shot at fighting the government's war, then don't join the government's army. Because if you get blown up, shot or otherwise killed, it's a bit shit, but you don't have a right to complain. You chose to be there.

Of course.
For some though, the choice is Hobson's choice.

 

[treelover]

Actually, isn't it generally accepted that someone's sense of mortality ("I might actually die") isn't fully developed when they are 18?

If true, I wonder how many 25 year olds would volunteer for active duty vs 18 year olds if 25 were the minimum age.
Reply With Quote

I think thats a very good point, wars are usually fought by young men and now women on behalf of old men although since the Clinton/Blair era one could say middle aged men and women..

 

[ViolentPanda]

Should we blame the class system, the politicians or the global economy or a gang of fundamentalists who have created a hellish society in Afghanistan?

All of the above.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well that's not very bright. I guess we could blame the government for that as well though - he'd never have joined up if history was taught properly in schools.

I got an O level in history 31 years ago, before new Labour had even been imagined, and yet I still enlisted.
Your perceptions of the character and intellect of squaddies are quite interesting.
Amazingly ignorant and arrogant, but interesting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What about this hanger full of Chinooks, grounded on some technicality or other? what about the Merlins from Iraq?

It's not a technicality, it's shite don't-do-the-job-they're-meant-to-do avionics that are likely to cause crashes and deaths if the fuckers are used.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And this is where I disagree. Wars are political decisions taken by politicians.

"War is the continuation of politics by other means". (von Clausewitz)

 

[Zabo]

He deserves to lose an election on his shortcomings. He does not deserve to be character-assassinated by an evil motherfucking cunt (Rupert Murdoch) a million times more sinister and harmful to this country than Brown could ever be.

10/10

I had to smile at Monday's Sun. Page one headline "Shameful" over the Brown article. Turn the page over and see a big pair of tits.

Yes, the Sun knows all about dignity.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I really don't like this situation; I don't see how it's going to help anything.

The one positive is that Gordon Brown looks like a clumsy insensitive cock who doesn't really care about soldiers' lives at all, which is true enough. However it manages to do that in a way that actually boosts support for the war and the continuation of it, as the concentration is not on "well they shouldn't be there at all" but on "they should have more helicopters" - the assumptions being that (a) more helicopters would save them and crucially (b) it would somehow be all okay if no Brits died whilst invading the country.

It might damage Brown but only by boosting the Tories (and Murdoch of course), allowing them to be all more-hawkish-than-thou and move the discourse in that direction, which doesn't to me seem like any sort of good thing at all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

no, nor does she, Maybe it's not worth putting £52 millions worth of equipment at risk for I life? The generals must have to make some cruel decisions

In my experience, if there's a way to get someone out, it'll be done and damn the possibility of losing kit.
I think what killed this lad was that his wounds (traumatic amputation of both legs, plus wounds to abdomen and head from what I can make out) were so significant that even if he'd been two minutes from a major trauma unit he'd have bled out halfway there, if the shock hadn't already killed him.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oooh comedy genius..... Jim Davidson without the wit.

Isn't that just a description of Jim Davidson, though?

 

[Corax]

For some though, the choice is Hobson's choice.

And there's the crux for me.

I'm against killing people. For that reason, I cannot and will not laud as heroes people that are paid to do so. At the same time, I'm acutely aware that I'm able to take that position because of the fortunate position I've found myself in, so neither can I condemn them as individuals.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tbh, the mother of '5th generation' infantry probably is a 'warmonger' by some definitions. Others would characterise it as 'patriotic' or whatever.

Are you blotto, or summat?
My mum is the mother of a 6th generation infantryman, and the only way she can be characterised is as staunchly anti-war. Fact is that plenty of mums don't want their kids to become soldiers, but they'll grin and bear it and support their kids if they do become soldiers.

 

[Corax]

Are you blotto, or summat?
My mum is the mother of a 6th generation infantryman, and the only way she can be characterised is as staunchly anti-war. Fact is that plenty of mums don't want their kids to become soldiers, but they'll grin and bear it and support their kids if they do become soldiers.

Good for her, but JJ's clearly not 'staunchly anti-war', or she would have used her recent publicity to at least mention something alluding to that fact. Lets's talk about her rather than your mum eh?

 

[Corax]

Are you blotto, or summat?

Ps - of course I bloody am. Can you not see the time?

 

[DownwardDog]

It's not a technicality, it's shite don't-do-the-job-they're-meant-to-do avionics that are likely to cause crashes and deaths if the fuckers are used.

The blended glass/clockwork cockpit in the HC.3 seemed to work ok but they couldn't get an airworthiness cert. due to software assurance issues. I half recall some mad scheme to use the RNLAF CH-47 specs and "read across" but that plan didn't survive contact with reality.

We've now paid 50m quid to Boeing to revert them to HC.2 standard and we're in this thing balls deep to the tune of 500m quid for 8 airframes. QinetiQ have flown one of the "new" HC.2s and all will be re-delivered by the end of 2010. A mere 15 years late. A hearty well done to all involved.

 

[dylans]

it manages to do that in a way that actually boosts support for the war and the continuation of it, as the concentration is not on "well they shouldn't be there at all" but on "they should have more helicopters" - the assumptions being that (a) more helicopters would save them and crucially (b) it would somehow be all okay if no Brits died whilst invading the country.

It might damage Brown but only by boosting the Tories (and Murdoch of course), allowing them to be all more-hawkish-than-thou and move the discourse in that direction, which doesn't to me seem like any sort of good thing at all.

This.

The assumptions here are the issue and it is by seeing through these assumptions that we can see the political agenda that is being played out here. A move to increase patriotic sentiment and support for the occupation amongst the population by attacking Brown for inaction. The message is clear, do more.



The assumption that the war is winnable if only the "cheapskate" government would provide more resources. That the deaths of British troops can be avoided if only the "uncaring" Brown would provide such equipment.

The assumption that the deaths of British soldiers is wholly and entirely the fault of the government not being behind the war enough. This is at the heart of the present obsession with Brown's spelling mistakes. They are saying "look he doesn't care. He hasn't got the stomach for the fight. "

The whole focus on "insensitive" letter writing or "equipment shortages" very neatly sidesteps the real issue of why soldiers are being killed, The occupation itself isn't questioned.

The logical next step according to this logic of course, is to insist the government increase its commitments in Afganistan.

 

[Spion]

Well what's your point? You've posted up a dictionary definition. Yes, that's the dictionary definition of 'warmonger'. You get a gold star.

My point was to provide a reference to back up your remark, you argumentative twat.

 

[Corax]

My point was to provide a reference to back up your remark, you argumentative twat.

Perhaps if you'd added something to explain that, it would have helped. On its own, it could equally have looked like an attempt to 'oppose' my remark. Particularly on here.

 

[Dan U]

The blended glass/clockwork cockpit in the HC.3 seemed to work ok but they couldn't get an airworthiness cert. due to software assurance issues. I half recall some mad scheme to use the RNLAF CH-47 specs and "read across" but that plan didn't survive contact with reality.

We've now paid 50m quid to Boeing to revert them to HC.2 standard and we're in this thing balls deep to the tune of 500m quid for 8 airframes. QinetiQ have flown one of the "new" HC.2s and all will be re-delivered by the end of 2010. A mere 15 years late. A hearty well done to all involved.

are these the helicopters that have been in a hanger for years and are occasionally reported on in Private Eye?

 

[danny la rouge]

At the same time, I'm acutely aware that I'm able to take that position because of the fortunate position I've found myself in, so neither can I condemn them as individuals.

Exactly. Nobody is asking you to laud anyone as a hero. You oppose this war, and so do I. But there is a difference between opposing a war and calling dead soldiers and their grieving mothers "pricks". Which you haven't done, but which some on here have.

I won't be contributing to Spion's bus fare to come up here and confront Rose Gentle with his pure, Platonic-ideal-form version of socialistic anti militarism. Because that's exactly the sort of reason the left is held in low regard by ordinary, decent working class people.

Anyone with any human empathy can see why this grieving mother is angry. Calling that "making a dick of herself in the national media" is hardly going to win any sympathy for an anti war argument.