The mother of the soldier who is being allowed to freak out on air.

[Spion]

Perhaps if you'd added something to explain that, it would have helped. On its own, it could equally have looked like an attempt to 'oppose' my remark. Particularly on here.

Maybe when you don't get something you should try letting it pass without assuming it's a dig.

You're some pacifist

 

[DownwardDog]

are these the helicopters that have been in a hanger for years and are occasionally reported on in Private Eye?

Yes, although Private Eye obviously know fuck all about military aviation and often get the technical details wildly incorrect. The whole fiasco started as a turf war between the AAC and RAF who were desperate to retain the RW Spec Ops mission. The MH-47D was right tool for the job but the RAF convinced the MoD they could get most of the capability with a modified version of the Dutch CH-47C variant. It's Portillo's fault.

The unit cost of a MH-47D (the ones we should have bought in the first place) was about $14m each. We're going to end up paying close to $80m each to end up with HC.2s that are the same spec. as the originals we bought (or nicked from the Argies) in the 80s and these new ones were meant to partially replace. Fuck me, it's funny.

 

[Spion]

I won't be contributing to Spion's bus fare to come up here and confront Rose Gentle with his pure, Platonic-ideal-form version of socialistic anti militarism.

Aw, and I was looking forward to coming up and enjoying a half and a nip with all ma new Scottish pals

 

[Corax]

Maybe when you don't get something you should try letting it pass without assuming it's a dig.

You're some pacifist

TBF, my first post was 'eh?'

Pacifist and non-confrontational are not the same thing. One of my biggest disappointments when it comes to war is that we have alternative, superior methods of resolving disputes. That includes calling each other twats.

 

[danny la rouge]

Aw, and I was looking forward to coming up and enjoying a half and a nip with all ma new Scottish pals

Not that kind of Platonic.

 

[Dan U]

Yes, although Private Eye obviously know fuck all about military aviation and often get the technical details wildly incorrect. The whole fiasco started as a turf war between the AAC and RAF who were desperate to retain the RW Spec Ops mission. The MH-47D was right tool for the job but the RAF convinced the MoD they could get most of the capability with a modified version of the Dutch CH-47C variant. It's Portillo's fault.

it's worthy of a though.

 

[Spion]

Pacifist and non-confrontational are not the same thing. One of my biggest disappointments when it comes to war is that we have alternative, superior methods of resolving disputes. That includes calling each other twats.

Well, it's an interesting approach *grin*

I met a bloke on a bus in the US once from Veterans for Peace. He was quite a pacifist. He had everything from the macro-level view (he'd just been to a VfP gathering to oppose a veterans' day parade) right through to ways of dealing with hostile personal interaction. Maybe it was touchy-feely American stuff, but the level of thought given to it impressed me.

 

[Spion]

Not that kind of Platonic.

Anyway, joking aside, you're confusing the blunt remarks one makes on a message board full of smartarse twats with how I'd deal with the kind of grieving mother type of person. I'm not going to change my idea that the war is unjust and that this janes woman is supporting it and deluded about the causes of her son's death, but I'm hardly likely to wade in jabbing the finger as fedayn's fevered imagination would have it.

 

[newbie]

Well the said mother of the dead soldier has just been on the ITV evening news.

No sign of the publicity dying down yet awhile.

It hasn't played itself out yet, there's plenty of mileage yet to come, that's why breaking this story is such good populist journalism. Those simple spelling mistakes might well be the road cones of the Brown era.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not going to change my idea that the war is unjust and that this janes woman is supporting it and deluded about the causes of her son's death, but I'm hardly likely to wade in jabbing the finger as fedayn's fevered imagination would have it.

I don't want you to change your idea that the war is unjust; of course it's unjust. The cause of Guardsman Janes' death is the government sending her son to Afghanistan to fight a war.

 

[rover07]

So how many helicopters have the British Army got in Afganistan?

Cant they use American air support as well?

 

[agricola]

It hasn't played itself out yet, there's plenty of mileage yet to come, that's why breaking this story is such good populist journalism. Those simple spelling mistakes might well be the road cones of the Brown era.

As much as I think he has been an awful PM, and a worse chancellor, this is a very shoddy piece of journalism. As numerous people have said (probably on this thread as well, but I havent read the first twelve pages), at heart this story is criticizing a partially sighted man for not writing properly and making some simple spelling errors.

Brown wasnt showing disrespect by writing the letter personally and by hand, in fact anyone who approached this from a viewpoint that hadnt just allied itself to the Tories would probably acknowledge that.

 

[Obnoxiousness]

It seems Gordon now knows how to spell chinook:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8353361.stm

 

[weltweit]

On the BBC 10pm news they showed a glimpse of Gordon Brown's letter which Mrs Janes has released to the Sun. I have to say, it was not even joined up writing. My 10 year old has better writing than Gordon Brown. I was quite shocked.

 

[Ralph Masters]

On the BBC 10pm news they showed a glimpse of Gordon Brown's letter which Mrs Janes has released to the Sun. I have to say, it was not even joined up writing. My 10 year old has better writing than Gordon Brown. I was quite shocked.

maybe your 10 year old could run the country

 

[weltweit]

maybe your 10 year old could run the country

Now that would be a disaster !!

 

[Ralph Masters]

Now that would be a disaster !!

so hand writing doesn't really tell us much about leadership qualities?

 

[DownwardDog]

So how many helicopters have the British Army got in Afganistan?

Cant they use American air support as well?

8 Chinooks but you can assume at least 2 will be broken at any one time. I think there's also some RN Sea Things and you can assume all of them will be broken.

The crews are more of a problem than the airframes at the moment as the RAF is 40+ heads under strength on CR RW crew. They are currently ransacking the UK SAR fleet for pilots and rushing them through Chinook type conversion in California.

They do cadge lifts from the US where possible.

 

[gabi]

Christ. Just heard her hysterical rant on the news. What a fucking nutter. I see the sun got their logo inserted there on newsnight. Classy all round.

 

[weltweit]

so hand writing doesn't really tell us much about leadership qualities?

I wasnt critiquing his leadership skills, no need, his are rudimentary..

I was critiquing his condolence letter, which bordered on the illegible.

When my dad died we got quite a few letters of condolence from his friends far away, they in the main made an effort to be legible. And I have had to write a few letters like that myself, you cannot just rush them off, they deserve at the least to be legible!

 

[DotCommunist]

I bet someone could make a few quid shipping stingers to the afghans, seeing as they seem to have run out of the CIA supplied ones. That'd make air support a bit of a joke.

 

[weltweit]

About the helicopters.

A couple of weeks ago there were lots of questions to ministers asking how many helicopters have we got there? and none of the ministers (Ainsworth in particular) answered the question, what they said was quite specific, they said that "helicopter hours" had been increased. They did not answer simply about how many helicopters we had.

 

[gabi]

She's lead story on newsnight. Bonkers.

 

[nightowl]

i can't imagine what any person who lost their child is going through, but i don't believe that gordon brown, for all his faults and support for the war, was being deliberately insulting. he fucked up yes, at a very bad time, but that's what it was, a genuine fuck up. the reaction to the whole thing has been nothing short of hysterical and i don't think it does the mother any credit the way she secretly recorded his phone call to apologise and then sent it to the scum

 

[rover07]

8 Chinooks but you can assume at least 2 will be broken at any one time. I think there's also some RN Sea Things and you can assume all of them will be broken.

The crews are more of a problem than the airframes at the moment as the RAF is 40+ heads under strength on CR RW crew. They are currently ransacking the UK SAR fleet for pilots and rushing them through Chinook type conversion in California.

They do cadge lifts from the US where possible.

Just had a look at helicopter numbers.

48 Chinooks
85 Seakings

Plus about 300 other light helicopters! So there is no shortage of equipment, what is the Army doing with all these helicopters?

Is there another war we dont know about

 

[newbie]

As much as I think he has been an awful PM, and a worse chancellor, this is a very shoddy piece of journalism. As numerous people have said (probably on this thread as well, but I havent read the first twelve pages), at heart this story is criticizing a partially sighted man for not writing properly and making some simple spelling errors.

no they're criticising the prime minister of the land for being insufficiently polite to a commoner.

they're also pointing out that the pm has limited political feel and inept timing

and that the sun supports our boys

that simple story has opened up proper, raw, debate about the conduct of the war, and, separately, about his fitness to be pm.

Brown wasnt showing disrespect by writing the letter personally and by hand, in fact anyone who approached this from a viewpoint that hadnt just allied itself to the Tories would probably acknowledge that.

if she'd sat down and thought "ah, what a lovely letter" none of this would have happened.

 

[Ralph Masters]

i can't imagine what any person who lost their child is going through, but i don't believe that gordon brown, for all his faults and support for the war, was being deliberately insulting. he fucked up yes, at a very bad time, but that's what it was, a genuine fuck up. the reaction to the whole thing has been nothing short of hysterical and i don't think it does the mother any credit the way she secretly recorded his phone call to apologise and then sent it to the scum

she says she's heavily sedated, and comes across as very confused

 

[FridgeMagnet]

that simple story has opened up proper, raw, debate about the conduct of the war

It really hasn't though has it?

 

[Ralph Masters]

 

[ricbake]

Sun sponsored, media amplified grief that Newsnight should have stayed well away from.


There does seem a level of calculation in her behaviour and the measure of her voice during that phone recording that is disturbing. It is more than just the fact that the Sun is using her as a political tool.