The mother of the soldier who is being allowed to freak out on air.

[weltweit]

Just had a look at helicopter numbers.

48 Chinooks
85 Seakings

Plus about 300 other light helicopters! So there is no shortage of equipment, what is the Army doing with all these helicopters?

Is there another war we dont know about

What do these figures refer to?

 

[DownwardDog]

I bet someone could make a few quid shipping stingers to the afghans, seeing as they seem to have run out of the CIA supplied ones. That'd make air support a bit of a joke.

The BCU in a FIM-92/Stinger only has a shelf life of 3-4 years in normal conditions never mind when it's in a cave so all of the Sov. era ones have long been useless. Countermeasures are much better now anyway.

 

[nightowl]

There does seem a level of calculation in her behaviour and the measure of her voice during that phone recording that is disturbing. It is more than just the fact that the Sun is using her as a political tool.

i agree. there's a lot of talk about her being 'used' by the sun but she's well aware of what she's doing

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I really don't like this situation; I don't see how it's going to help anything.

The one positive is that Gordon Brown looks like a clumsy insensitive cock who doesn't really care about soldiers' lives at all, which is true enough. However it manages to do that in a way that actually boosts support for the war and the continuation of it, as the concentration is not on "well they shouldn't be there at all" but on "they should have more helicopters" - the assumptions being that (a) more helicopters would save them and crucially (b) it would somehow be all okay if no Brits died whilst invading the country.

It might damage Brown but only by boosting the Tories (and Murdoch of course), allowing them to be all more-hawkish-than-thou and move the discourse in that direction, which doesn't to me seem like any sort of good thing at all.

Well quite. What a shitty situation eh?

 

[rover07]

What do these figures refer to?

The number of helicopters in the Army, Navy and RAF.

There are only 10 chinooks in Helmand. Where are all the rest?

 

[DotCommunist]

The BCU in a FIM-92/Stinger only has a shelf life of 3-4 years in normal conditions never mind when it's in a cave so all of the Sov. era ones have long been useless. Countermeasures are much better now anyway.

hmm. Maybe something more modern, but still able to be fired by the lone fighter.

Either way, there must be a market for it. Saudi money allegedly floods the region (not to mention poppy profit), they can afford some sort of portable anti-aircraft device

 

[ymu]

Just had a look at helicopter numbers.

48 Chinooks
85 Seakings

Plus about 300 other light helicopters! So there is no shortage of equipment, what is the Army doing with all these helicopters?

Is there another war we dont know about

Did you check out where they all are at the moment?

 

[rover07]

Did you check out where they all are at the moment?

No... I just had a quick look on Wikipedia

 

[rover07]

hmm. Maybe something more modern, but still able to be fired by the lone fighter.

Either way, there must be a market for it. Saudi money allegedly floods the region (not to mention poppy profit), they can afford some sort of portable anti-aircraft device

It must be possible to take down helicopters using RPGs like in Somalia. Or mortar fire when they land.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It must be possible to take down helicopters using RPGs like in Somalia. Or mortar fire when they land.

I don't believe that there is yet an effective defence against "a big fuck-off machinegun", or "waiting until people get out and then shooting them" or, well, quite a number of different tactics.

 

[DotCommunist]

It must be possible to take down helicopters using RPGs like in Somalia. Or mortar fire when they land.

Targeting. I think you'd have to have the luck of Johnny McLucky himself to hit a helicopter with an RPG. If it was even flying low enough to be in range

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Targeting. I think you'd have to have the luck of Johnny McLucky himself to hit a helicopter with an RPG. If it was even flying low enough to be in range

Apparently people have perfected the timing for this, and have shot down a number of US helicopters with RPGs now.

 

[DotCommunist]

Apparently people have perfected the timing for this, and have shot down a number of US helicopters with RPGs now.

No way! Good god, the RPG is the weapon that just keeps on giving.

 

[newbie]

It really hasn't though has it?

seems that way to me. For months discussion of the war has been dry, unemotional, lacking in passion, now it's suddenly quite heated and direct. The debate has an obvious hole where strong anti-war voices should be.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

seems that way to me. For months discussion of the war has been dry, unemotional, lacking in passion, now it's suddenly quite heated and direct. The debate has an obvious hole where strong anti-war voices should be.

All that's happened is that there are lots of people calling each other crap because they don't support A MILLION NEW HELICOPTERS TO SAVE OUR BOYS. It's not debate.

 

[agricola]

All that's happened is that there are lots of people calling each other crap because they don't support A MILLION NEW HELICOPTERS TO SAVE OUR BOYS. It's not debate.

Amazingly enough, a relatively reasonable article on this very issue is in todays Mail.

 

[Corax]

Paxman did well on Newsnight I thought. Obviously he couldn't do his normal act of savagery, but he did get one important point out of her, and that that there was a helicopter despatched to rescue her son. So the whole helicopter thing has just been a load of media-inspired bullshit.

 

[London_Calling]

I haven't followed this at all; from the little I have read it seems The Sun is trying to define the media agenda in a tabloid fashion and the BBC is following - is that an approximation?

 

[DownwardDog]

hmm. Maybe something more modern, but still able to be fired by the lone fighter.

Either way, there must be a market for it. Saudi money allegedly floods the region (not to mention poppy profit), they can afford some sort of portable anti-aircraft device

Modern MANPADs are over $250k a shot - if you can get them - and require careful storage and handling. They are also not exactly easy to use especially by an illiterate goat herder with cataracts. Roadside and suicide bombs are a much cheaper and effective way of thinning the ranks of Tommy Atkins so that's what they do.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Amazingly enough, a relatively reasonable article on this very issue is in todays Mail.

Well, that one's saying "leave old Gordo alone, he was only trying to do the right thing". If all we've got is "Brown's a bastard and more helicopters" vs "nah he's all right" I don't think that's much of a result.

 

[William of Walworth]

Just caught up with this whole thread

I despise the Sun and have boycotting since Hillsborough, but i'm not going to allow a blood stained piece of shit like Brown off the hook just because they've ran a story.

It's not zero-sum.

Exactly, it's not either or. It's perfectly possible to be anti Brown (which on the war especially, I am, completely) and at the same time to find what the Sun are up to thoroughly cynical and disgusting.

I really don't like this situation; I don't see how it's going to help anything.

The one positive is that Gordon Brown looks like a clumsy insensitive cock who doesn't really care about soldiers' lives at all, which is true enough. However it manages to do that in a way that actually boosts support for the war and the continuation of it, as the concentration is not on "well they shouldn't be there at all" but on "they should have more helicopters" - the assumptions being that (a) more helicopters would save them and crucially (b) it would somehow be all okay if no Brits died whilst invading the country.

It might damage Brown but only by boosting the Tories (and Murdoch of course), allowing them to be all more-hawkish-than-thou and move the discourse in that direction, which doesn't to me seem like any sort of good thing at all.

Exactly.

And FM was also right to say that all this faux-outrage on the Sun's part is doing nothing to encourage any kind of proper debate about Afghanistan.

 

[DexterTCN]

...
Exactly.

And FM was also right to say that all this faux-outrage on the Sun's part is doing nothing to encourage any kind of proper debate about Afghanistan.

That's the idea, isn't it? To stop a real debate.

 

[butchersapron]

Exactly, it's not either or. It's perfectly possible to be anti Brown (which on the war especially, I am, completely) and at the same time to find what the Sun are up to thoroughly cynical and disgusting.

And how exactly does that differ from what i said?

edit: in fact that was my exact point. There are people here trying to make it into an either/or choice though, you're right. But it's those dismissing it because it's the Sun chasing the story who are doing that. The ones choosing Brown over the Sun. Either/or.

 

[ymu]

 

[ymu]

It's not a technicality, it's shite don't-do-the-job-they're-meant-to-do avionics that are likely to cause crashes and deaths if the fuckers are used.

I thought the Chinooks have remained grounded because the MoD didn't buy the software to train the pilots on them, or summat like that?

Found this about the Merlins:

According to Thomas Harding in The Daily Telegraph, in order to get the Merlins out to Afghanistan by the end of the year, Kevlar armour has been omitted from the load compartment – thus producing a saving of £100,000.

The armour, similar to that fitted to a Snatch Land Rover, protects troops from small calibre weapons and fragmentation from RPGs, and has been a requirement in operational helicopters ever since June 2003. Then, a Chinook attempting to land a relief force to aid embattled troops in the Iraqi town of Majar al-Kabir, took heavy gunfire which injured seven, some seriously.

Writes Harding, the lack of armour will severely restrict the operational use of these helicopters. Possibly, they will be restricted to "safe" areas (if there are any) and for the transport of supplies rather than personnel. At over £30 million each for the six ex-Danish Merlins, this would make them the most expensive delivery trucks in the world.

http://defenceoftherealm.blogspot.com/2009/08/cutting-corners.html

 

[William of Walworth]

And how exactly does that differ from what i said?

edit: in fact that was my exact point. There are people here trying to make it into an either/or choice though, you're right. But it's those dismissing it because it's the Sun chasing the story who are doing that. The ones choosing Brown over the Sun. Either/or.

Fair enough

Definitely wrong to just dismiss the story because it's the Sun, but when I was reading the thread yesterday there seemed to be a few people downplaying necessary criticism of the Sun's tactics and motives. Apparant logic being that any hit on Brown, however done, on whatever agenda, for whatever reason is OK? Well maybe, but, the Sun was doing it on an obvious prowar and proTory agenda ...

Just as there were others downplaying necessary criticism of Brown on the war, just because the Sun is a scumbag of a newspaper.

Both wrong IMO.

 

[William of Walworth]

Steve Bell is excellent, fact (and he's no fan of Brown either, for sure).

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Apologists for Brown and The Scum's attack-dogs are both filth. 'nuff said. This whole ongoing spat looks like a phoney false paradigm distraction.

 

[William of Walworth]

Apologists for Brown and The Scum's attack-dogs are both filth. 'nuff said. This whole ongoing spat looks like a phoney false paradigm distraction.

A Sun-spun conspiracy, like?

(I don't disagree with you btw)

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

not neccesserily an overt conspiracy, just a muppet show for people who think that tory-labour represents a wide spectrum.