The Lefts reaction to hurricane Katrina

[JoMo1953]

Those corporations provide health care and jobs to millions of Americans. Those US corporations like microsoft and google make it possible to communicate as we are doing. Who is going to provide us with millions of jobs in the first world, our governments?

What would African and ME countries do without British Petroleum and Exxon Mobil. How do you get the oil from the ground without their capital and expertise? Its not those corporations fault Africa is filled with shanty town for instance. Its the accountable leaders, but I digress.

Okay and lets talk about the "working poor" in this country shall we Mears....those wonderful coporations of yours that DO NOT provide healthcare, or benefits for millions of Americans....Wal-Mart being one of them if were going to name names!!! They answer to the "shareholders" at the expense of the working poor.

 

[herman]

I believe in the free market. What economic system do you believe in?

What economic systems I "believe in" is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand and any attempt to derail is an insult to those who have died and have suffered in this vast human tragedy. I would much rather discuss with you what can be practically done to help the unfortunate victims of Katrina than play silly little word games over matters of faith surrounding economic models.

But if it makes you feel better I believe that all hitherto economic models play(ed) and essential role in the development of society as we know it (including historically slavery and feudalism). I also believe that it is impossible to simply overlay an economic model applicable to one set of conditions to another state where conditions are less suitable.

So back to the more important subject of the hurricane..

As a "believer" in a free market system, surely you will applaud how successfully the market system worked in the run up to the hurricane in that everyone who could afford to leave New Orleans was able to do so. On the other hand evil Cuba managed to evacuate over a million of its citizens when faced with a cat 5 hurricane, and no one died.

See the problem the free market is this- while much can be achieved in terms of bringing consumables to consumers it is not the best system to enact an immediate response to a natural disaster (though granted it could play a role in long term reconstruction). The market itself is dependent on a certain infrastructure, but this infrastructure is itself a function of state rather than of the market.

It has become the orthodoxy in recent years to substitute the functions of state for those of the market, but unfortunately the market is more adept at some things over others.

For example in this instance the best the market could possibly have come up with is an evacuation insurance where individuals insure themselves against pending natural disasters. But this would lead to the same outcomes- ie those who could not afford the bus fare out of town would not have been able to afford any such insurance.

Markets are a mechanism about bringing goods and services to those able and willing to pay for them, but in the case of a mass evacuation what was required was something far more universal, and regardless of ability to pay.

How the market is able to respond to natural disaster was illustrated by the partial nature of the evacuation ultimately leading to a far more costly intervention by the state to organise an evacuation under far less favourable conditions. It would have been far better to have run free buses just over a week ago. Instead of leaving the market to decide who was able to leave and who was forced to stay.

 

[In Bloom]

A million refugees created in less than a week. People who refuse the leave the city and are engulfed in water. Many of these people can't be reached by automobile or helicopter. One of the worst hurricanes on record.

And none of you care until you can apportion blame.

Blame George Bush

In his incredibly fuckwitted, blinkered way, mears approaches making a point here. There seems to be an unfortunate tendancy among some to respond to stuff like this with "How does this effect our chances of getting rid of Bush?"

The problem goes far deeper than Bush, the bottom line (if you'll pardon the pun) is that we live in a world where property is valued more than human life, if that's not the key to this whole fucked up situation, I don't know what is.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not in the slightest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html

REad this it will bring you up to speed, many of the points i have been making are in their.

Bush tolk the un precidented action of releasing the FEMA money before the storm even hit ffs.

Acknowledgements to bigfish for this link. I don't know if it already appears later in this thread, but it bears repetition.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10121.htm

 

[mears]

Okay and lets talk about the "working poor" in this country shall we Mears....those wonderful coporations of yours that DO NOT provide healthcare, or benefits for millions of Americans....Wal-Mart being one of them if were going to name names!!! They answer to the "shareholders" at the expense of the working poor.

No one is forced to work at Wal Mart. Wal Mart prices are a windfall for the poor of our country. They pay less for their refrigerators, clothes and televisions because of Wal Mart.

Its much cheaper to cash a check or wire money from Wal Mart than a mojor American bank, and institutional American banks are up in arms. Wal Mart is cutting into the fat profits of banks that charge fees to poor people to cash a check (when one doesn't have a bank account) or wire money back to your needy relatives in Mexico. This is a positive occurrence for America's working poor.

Its a little more complicated than sloganeering about the evils of corporations.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A million refugees created in less than a week. People who refuse the leave the city and are engulfed in water. Many of these people can't be reached by automobile or helicopter. One of the worst hurricanes on record.

And none of you care until you can apportion blame.

Blame George Bush

What people care about is why they were left so long. There will be a growing chorus of voices demanding an answer.

After 911, they knew OBL did it, but they couldn't find him.

This time, they still have to prove who did it, but when they do, they'll know where to find him.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Those with unresponsive, unelected governments. Examples would be most of the Middle East and Africa.

I wonder if the people of New Orleans would have fared any worse in one of your uncivilized countries?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Those corporations provide health care and jobs to millions of Americans. Those US corporations like microsoft and google make it possible to communicate as we are doing. Who is going to provide us with millions of jobs in the first world, our governments?

What would African and ME countries do without British Petroleum and Exxon Mobil. How do you get the oil from the ground without their capital and expertise? Its not those corporations fault Africa is filled with shanty town for instance. Its the accountable leaders, but I digress.

I think there will be a reckoning in your country over this. I think that the people of the US will come to believe that the republican vision of the future was unable to see the poor in Louisiana, and I think the republicans will be punished.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> The problem goes far deeper than Bush, the bottom line (if you'll pardon the pun) is that we live in a world where property is valued more than human life, if that's not the key to this whole fucked up situation, I don't know what is.

Quite.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I've been keeping out of the politics fora recently as I have had a lot of other stuff on my mind but I have read all this thread and I am disgusted with bushbots like Mears and PBman. They have shown themselves to be bereft of any semblence of humanity or capability of independent thought. There are those who I disagree with politically etc but I would still put out my hand to them if they were in danger.

These disgusting trolls - for that is the only word for them that I can find at the moment - are snidely making political points out of of a situation where it is obvious that there has been a failiureat the highest level.

One poster on here said that the US Federal Govt (and peebs don't parrot the same old shit about state / federal consitutions you know as well as I do that in an emergency these niceties can be relaxed) has performed worse than Iran in this emergency. I would say that Iran could probably do a better job - a more useful comparison would be somewhere like Somalia.

All I can say is that I feel we have tolerated the constant thread disruption trolling and bullshit from Mears and PBman for long enough and any interjections they make on threads is not taken seriously and worse is disruptive. I used to believe that unlike Mears pb had some sort of humanity underlying his screen persona. Now I'm not so sure.

I am going to make one of the rare uses of my ignore list over these pair of clowns.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I believe in the free market. What economic system do you believe in?

So you "believe" in it, do you?

Why?

Surely there are enough proveable sets of data about "the free market" that you don't have to invest something as personal and unquantifiable as "belief" in it?

Oh, and "the free market" isn't an "economic system", dufus. It's a loose (and fluid) collection of economic practices that change at the whim of the massive trade organisations that (and here's the real joke) organise and police so-called "free trade".

In the end you're just another adherent of a mystical belief system.

 

[Andy the Don]

A million refugees created in less than a week. People who refuse the leave the city and are engulfed in water. Many of these people can't be reached by automobile or helicopter. One of the worst hurricanes on record.

The US right plays its social darwinism card, those people who were trapped in New Orleans, its their own fault, they could have left.. It's natural selection of the poorest..

 

[CyberRose]

On that bastion of intellectual thought, Urban 75...

To be perfectly honest I think mears has a point. There were no threads in World Politics about the hurricane for about two days after it hit, yet on another forum the thread on the hurricane was already on it's 6th page before it hit. The first thread was saying "what goes around comes around" (ie using the hurricane to have a go about the Iraq war) another thread asked "what can we learn about the social breakdown in NOLA" (ie using the hurricane to have a go at the capitalist system) and the other thread was asking "will the hurricane bring Bush down" (ie did you have more wanks over 9/11 or Katrina?) Where was the general thread saying how terrible this tragedy was like the thread about the stampede in Iraq recently? The impression is that people on this forum care more about using the hurricane to pursue their own anti-x agenda than they do about expressing sadness for the Americans who have suffered. Its as if the left care more about Iraqis than they do about Americans and this is a trend we see everywhere. The left always have to take sides. They care more about Palestinians than they care about Israelis. They care more about Iraqis than they care about the British. They care more about Catholics than they care about Protestants. If that is not true (which I assume you will all inform me it isn't) then that is certainly the impression that is created. It's why the left get called hypocrites and its why they get no public support. Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America

And I know this post will provoke numerous replies labelling me a "cunt" etc but to be honest I'm passed caring. Its a trait of the left to deal with any criticism by throwing insults rather than address the concern so I expect it.

 

[rocketman]

To be perfectly honest...

I'm sorry, but I invite anyone on these boards to take a closer look at the New Orleans threads in the general and the politics sections.

You will see plenty of expressions of sympathy. You will also see plenty of concern.

You will also see that debate on issues raised by the disaster - such as Bush's inaction - does not begin until Wednesday, when people here - just like everyone else across the planet - were shocked at the way those poor people had been left abandoned.

I'm not about to degenerate this conversation by calling you anything abusive. I'll just leave it to say your argument is a selective one, and as such it just is not true.

And to be honest if the best argument the US gov apologists can now come up with is to slag people here off for not caring simply because we dare debate the issues, then I suggest that you are clutching at straws, and have finally reached the end of your arguments.

We debate because we do care. And we were shocked at the American government's failure to get involved until world opinion had become so furious.

I'm ever so disappointed in some of the arguments presented by US gov apologists. It really upsets me that on such a non-partisan disaster people can spew such rot.

This was a chronic failure of the American people on the part of federal and government-level forces.

And whether right, left or centre on a very human level it's unacceptable to refuse to face up to and to deal with the issues raised.

 

[CyberRose]

I dont post in the general forum so haven't seen the threads there, but I'm no "US gov apologist" It just pisses me off the way this tragedy is being used to further agendas. What exactly has this hurricane got to do with Iraq for a start? And dont get me wrong, the right are just as bad when it comes to using this tragedy to further their own agenda (ie why is the world not coming to our rescue when we did for the Tsunami which translates into we shouldn't help anyone)

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be perfectly honest I think mears has a point. There were no threads in World Politics about the hurricane for about two days after it hit, yet on another forum the thread on the hurricane was already on it's 6th page before it hit. The first thread was saying "what goes around comes around" (ie using the hurricane to have a go about the Iraq war) another thread asked "what can we learn about the social breakdown in NOLA" (ie using the hurricane to have a go at the capitalist system) and the other thread was asking "will the hurricane bring Bush down" (ie did you have more wanks over 9/11 or Katrina?) Where was the general thread saying how terrible this tragedy was like the thread about the stampede in Iraq recently? The impression is that people on this forum care more about using the hurricane to pursue their own anti-x agenda than they do about expressing sadness for the Americans who have suffered. Its as if the left care more about Iraqis than they do about Americans and this is a trend we see everywhere. The left always have to take sides. They care more about Palestinians than they care about Israelis. They care more about Iraqis than they care about the British. They care more about Catholics than they care about Protestants. If that is not true (which I assume you will all inform me it isn't) then that is certainly the impression that is created. It's why the left get called hypocrites and its why they get no public support. Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America

And I know this post will provoke numerous replies labelling me a "cunt" etc but to be honest I'm passed caring. Its a trait of the left to deal with any criticism by throwing insults rather than address the concern so I expect it.

I personally think that if you believe what you've said about this amorphous "left" then your analysis has been very shallow indeed.
Most people, regardless of their ideological and political alliegances, don't tend to filter their compassion through them, but rather feel compasion and then analyse the cause(s) of a particular issue or event, at which time their ideological or political alliegance comes into play.
As for your contention that "Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America", how very sad that you've (alongside the likes of mears and pbman, what lovely bedfellows) used the tragedy of millions of Americans to have a pop at a group whose politics you disagree with.

 

[CyberRose]

I personally think that if you believe what you've said about this amorphous "left" then your analysis has been very shallow indeed.
Most people, regardless of their ideological and political alliegances, don't tend to filter their compassion through them, but rather feel compasion and then analyse the cause(s) of a particular issue or event, at which time their ideological or political alliegance comes into play.
As for your contention that "Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America", how very sad that you've (alongside the likes of mears and pbman, what lovely bedfellows) used the tragedy of millions of Americans to have a pop at a group whose politics you disagree with.

I dont disagree with their politics, I just dont like the way they are applied to some and not others

 

[rocketman]

I dont post in the general forum so haven't seen the threads there, but I'm no "US gov apologist" It just pisses me off the way this tragedy is being used to further agendas. What exactly has this hurricane got to do with Iraq for a start? And dont get me wrong, the right are just as bad when it comes to using this tragedy to further their own agenda (ie why is the world not coming to our rescue when we did for the Tsunami which translates into we shouldn't help anyone)

CyberR:
Your problem is that you are uninformed. You have not looked at the general forum where the posts began. Discussion here in this political forum is political because its a political forum. So check the general forum before laying into us with your criticisms. Get informed.
You are also uninformed with regard to the tsunami. Offers of help where made from across the world within hours of the disaster, but Bush refused them, he even went on TV to say US could handle it all by itself.
The offers were there.
NATO, the UN, Russia, Cuba, Venezuala, Canada, the UK, even poor countries have offered aid. Everyone wants to help.
But the US government spurned such aid for the first few days following the disaster, and at the same time SENT NO AID TO THE AREA AFFECTED.
It left 1,700 ploicemen - who had themselves lost everything - to look after a city with a population of half a million following a major disaster event.
Please catch up.

 

[fractionMan]

Anyone see "Paint Your Wagon?" it was on today, but I forgot.

Top film. Everyone in favour of a whorehouse say aye!

 

[CyberRose]

You know if I had seen that thread in general I would not have posted that reply and for that I will apoligose. However, I would not have posted that reply on this thread. I am pissed off by the way the left (sorry VP thats just the term I'm gonna use until I find a better one) do prioritise between the people they apply their principels to and as far as I was concerned thats what was happening here. I think that rant would be better off on an Israel thread?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Katrina struck on a small part of huge country, one something like 40 times the size of England. That might be hard for some of you to grasp.

Get your facts right you numpty.

 

[mears]

To be perfectly honest I think mears has a point. There were no threads in World Politics about the hurricane for about two days after it hit, yet on another forum the thread on the hurricane was already on it's 6th page before it hit. The first thread was saying "what goes around comes around" (ie using the hurricane to have a go about the Iraq war) another thread asked "what can we learn about the social breakdown in NOLA" (ie using the hurricane to have a go at the capitalist system) and the other thread was asking "will the hurricane bring Bush down" (ie did you have more wanks over 9/11 or Katrina?) Where was the general thread saying how terrible this tragedy was like the thread about the stampede in Iraq recently? The impression is that people on this forum care more about using the hurricane to pursue their own anti-x agenda than they do about expressing sadness for the Americans who have suffered. Its as if the left care more about Iraqis than they do about Americans and this is a trend we see everywhere. The left always have to take sides. They care more about Palestinians than they care about Israelis. They care more about Iraqis than they care about the British. They care more about Catholics than they care about Protestants. If that is not true (which I assume you will all inform me it isn't) then that is certainly the impression that is created. It's why the left get called hypocrites and its why they get no public support. Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America

And I know this post will provoke numerous replies labelling me a "cunt" etc but to be honest I'm passed caring. Its a trait of the left to deal with any criticism by throwing insults rather than address the concern so I expect it.

Thanks. As I have said its not that the posters here like the US people and hate the US government, They are indifferent to the US people and hate their government.

But luckily a bitter minority.

And one I might add in many casaes is to dumb to vote.

 

[Streathamite]

Thanks. As I have said its not that the posters here like the US people and hate the US government, They are indifferent to the US people and hate their government.

what a ridiculous sweeping generalisation - in fact that's every bit as bad as forming generalised opinions about americans themselves!

 

[fractionMan]

and hate the US government, They are indifferent to the US people and hate their government.

You ignorant twat. All broccoli in the ears all of the time or something? My family are down the coast in mobile, I'd say I'm anything but indifferent to the fate of people in the US.

Fuck off and troll somewhere else.

 

[rocketman]

Thanks. As I have said its not that the posters here like the US people and hate the US government, They are indifferent to the US people and hate their government.
But luckily a bitter minority.
And one I might add in many casaes is to dumb to vote.

You are so wrong. It's sick. Utterly sick.

 

[nino_savatte]

I personally think that if you believe what you've said about this amorphous "left" then your analysis has been very shallow indeed.
Most people, regardless of their ideological and political alliegances, don't tend to filter their compassion through them, but rather feel compasion and then analyse the cause(s) of a particular issue or event, at which time their ideological or political alliegance comes into play.
As for your contention that "Their principles only apply to their 'chosen ones' and in this case their principles only apply to Americans as a secondary priority after using this tragedy to have a pop at America", how very sad that you've (alongside the likes of mears and pbman, what lovely bedfellows) used the tragedy of millions of Americans to have a pop at a group whose politics you disagree with.

C. Rose has finally shown his true colours after playing footsie for so long. I can't say I'm surprised but allying himself with mears is not one of the brightest of moves.

 

[fishfingerer]

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I don't know about anybody else but what made me so angry was the spectacle of the poor being left to die by the world's richest country.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't know about anybody else but what made me so angry was the spectacle of the poor being left to die by the world's richest country.

D'accord. Just because Condo Rice and Colin Powell have highly visible jobs, does not mean that the rest of black America is doing well. On the contrary, the majority of blacks exist below acceptable living standards. The poor are regarded as parasitic by the social darwinists who would baulk at the use of the word "Darwinist" to describe them. Indeed if certain individuals had their way the poor would be processed into animal feed, fertiliser or soap.

 

[CyberRose]

C. Rose has finally shown his true colours after playing footsie for so long. I can't I'm surprised but allying himself with mears is not one of the brightest of moves.

Brightest moves in what? In my life? In my career? Or in my 'popularity' on u75?

I dont think it would have any effect on the first two and in the last one, well what little bit of difference would that make to me?

And where's Violentpanda when you need him to have a go at someone for making generalising statements?!