The Independents Immigration lies....
- Thread starter tbaldwin
- Start date
Why do you all argue over things that don`t matter?
Who cares who the mainstream media supported once upon a time?
As for immigration, the state want to let in as many immigrants as possible in order to stir racial tensions and to create a crisis which they can use to solidify power.
Who cares who the mainstream media supported once upon a time?
As for immigration, the state want to let in as many immigrants as possible in order to stir racial tensions and to create a crisis which they can use to solidify power.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
belboid said:
Who was a Liberal...albeit an extremely imperialist Liberal. Is there any other sort of 19th Century Liberal?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
belboid said:
True but The Guardian - as we know it - didn't exist. I think it was originally called The Manchester Guardian and it was founded by a liberal and cast in the northern liberal tradition.
belboid said:
Not elected: appointed by the Duke of Newcastle!
belboid said:
Went over to the Whigs in 1865:
ibid said:
C P Scott then supported him.
Right. Work.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
belboid said:
I wouldn't have expected the MG do tell their voters to vote Tory either. Though when Gladstone first became an MP he allied himself to the Peellite wing of the party iirc. He was also a defender of slavery and supported the Confeds in the US Civil War. I would imagine this would have informed his notion of an empire "for good".
Aye, some liberal - eh?
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
TonkaToy said:
ok, that's not entirely unreasonable. that situation wouldn't work too badly. it would involve pulling out of the EU at the moment, which would basically collapse the british economy, but i think we could take it in the long run.
as a point of interest, the one in - one out system leaves some interesting questions relating to asylum seekers. do we allow asylum seekers entry at all, do we basically say fuck you no-one comes in to escape rape and murder, or do we say you can come in if we can find someone willing to go to sudan?
the point about stable economies is interesting too - i can see where you're coming from here, to a certain degree. but you often state that you're proud to be a right-winger, and a thatcherite economically. how do you reconcile this with your beliefs on immigration, as regular waves of immigration is vitally important to thatcherite economics?
My concern about the whole thing has no economic weight whatsoever - it's that all cultures will become diluted (at least in the UK) into a single monoculture. This is fine if you happen to be here for a short period of time with your home essentially elsewhere, but if you aren't then the country is becoming increasingly bland and personalitiless (is that a word?).
Like it or not but being english is actually surprisingly difficult in central london, which is somewhat perverse. You can't get a decent breakfast, ale or tea at all. The thing is if you wanted to live as if you were in Poland you'd probably find it easier.
Note: this post may be based on the delusion that things were somehow "better" in a bygone age which never actually existed. I hope someone gets what I'm on about though.
Like it or not but being english is actually surprisingly difficult in central london, which is somewhat perverse. You can't get a decent breakfast, ale or tea at all. The thing is if you wanted to live as if you were in Poland you'd probably find it easier.
Note: this post may be based on the delusion that things were somehow "better" in a bygone age which never actually existed. I hope someone gets what I'm on about though.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
TonkaToy said:
(my capitals)TonkaToy said:
i'll let someone else pick up the comment about the army of young harpies sucking spunk from their victims in order to scrounge valuable housing stock from over the heads of the honest working man.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
TonkaToy said:
thats another thread really, but you know what i wish for is some consistency in these things. i know of numerous cases where extremely ill people have been denied benefits due to not being ill enough. it's a consequence, IMO, of thatcherite economic policy towards the sick, and blairite spin towards the well. between the two we're all fucked!
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
kidtripod said:
like it or not? i've had a decent english breakfast, a decent english ale, and a damn fine cup of tea in different locations in london within the last week.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
Immigration is impacting on wages and housing specifically.
There is a left critique of this that is neither in line with neo-liberals or kneekerk reactionary/racist/purism ideology.
Why can't people appreciate this? Even if they don't agree with that critique.
There is a left critique of this that is neither in line with neo-liberals or kneekerk reactionary/racist/purism ideology.
Why can't people appreciate this? Even if they don't agree with that critique.
bluestreak said:
Well, they're pretty damn hard to find though. Compared with "Polski Produckts" which are ubiquitous.
I think we've essentially lost ourselves in a sea of other cultures. I'm not bemoaning the pole's etc. for coming here, but there comes a point when you have to ask if there is actually a spiritual home for the people that grew up here anymore, and that is why I think so many of the English are emigrating or more accurately want to, as in NZ, Canada and Aus are actually culturally closer to most Brits than most of London is now.
Of course mass emigration from England simply causes more of the same problem elsewhere with the English as perpetrators. (See Spain). Economically the benefits of the current policy are unquestionable, but all it does is help build a sort of globalised monoculture which will only ultimately benefit the few hungry media moguls at the top of the food chain.
If you look at Canada as an example Quebec has absolutely amazing laws on the subject, and were much derided at the time. However Montreal is now viewed as a culturally vibrant city, which would otherwise have become another bland me-too like Toronto. The Quebecois had the balls to preserve their local culture even when it meant upsetting 20% of the inhabitants when the laws were introduced. Hopefully it won't get to that stage before they consider the same things here.
EDIT: Been thinking and I've concluded that the whole issue is one of identity crisis. Modern Briton's feel they don't have an identity, and maybe this insecurity (perhaps justified) is manifesting itself in concerns over immigration. Therefore whilst supporting immigration I'd also support the idea of trying to reinstill some pride in the native populous. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
I do have a few concerns about the Polish immigration issue, the main one being that something about all this isn't very fair towards British people.
Many young Poles' attitudes are excellent; they are hard working, polite and do a good job. That's not really the point though. The point is that the common line amongst young Poles seems to be working in the UK for two to four years, living like a student for that time, and then going back to Poland with enough money saved to buy a decent city centre flat, and maybe a house in the country as well.
While this is all well and good, it seems very unfair that a vast amount of British people aren't able to do the same. They cannot work in another EU country, doing basic jobs for four years, and then come back to Blighty and buy a couple of properties in cash. If they could, I'd have no problem.
You can also bet your arse that if half a million Brits suddenly decamped to Poland, you'd get a hellova lot of racism from the Poles. Just like there's a lot of anti-English feeling where I am, particularly from those that have taken advantage of British education, employment, health services and business opportunities - which I find quite irritating.
This is what bugs me a bit about the liberal media and immigration. They fail to see that most countries are xenophobic, more so than the UK, and they fail to see that some Brits have valid concerns about economic forces.
I also think that working class Brits are judged by standards that are unreasonably high, when foreign nationals that have benefitted from the UK in phenomenal ways sometimes have appalling attitudes towards the English.
One elderly foreign gentleman I know very well has lived in the UK for sixty odd years, was given asylum by Britain because he could not return home without fear for his life, has a decent pension, enjoyed free heathcare despite working in the black economy for years and not paying tax or his stamp, yet he still refers to the English as 'pigs'. If it wasn't for 'English pigs', he wouldn't be alive today, nor had any children, nor had the ability to live out his fading years in a nice bug bungalow with lots of geraniums.
This gentleman's attitude pisses me off. He's my grandad.
Incidentally, he's Polish.
Many young Poles' attitudes are excellent; they are hard working, polite and do a good job. That's not really the point though. The point is that the common line amongst young Poles seems to be working in the UK for two to four years, living like a student for that time, and then going back to Poland with enough money saved to buy a decent city centre flat, and maybe a house in the country as well.
While this is all well and good, it seems very unfair that a vast amount of British people aren't able to do the same. They cannot work in another EU country, doing basic jobs for four years, and then come back to Blighty and buy a couple of properties in cash. If they could, I'd have no problem.
You can also bet your arse that if half a million Brits suddenly decamped to Poland, you'd get a hellova lot of racism from the Poles. Just like there's a lot of anti-English feeling where I am, particularly from those that have taken advantage of British education, employment, health services and business opportunities - which I find quite irritating.
This is what bugs me a bit about the liberal media and immigration. They fail to see that most countries are xenophobic, more so than the UK, and they fail to see that some Brits have valid concerns about economic forces.
I also think that working class Brits are judged by standards that are unreasonably high, when foreign nationals that have benefitted from the UK in phenomenal ways sometimes have appalling attitudes towards the English.
One elderly foreign gentleman I know very well has lived in the UK for sixty odd years, was given asylum by Britain because he could not return home without fear for his life, has a decent pension, enjoyed free heathcare despite working in the black economy for years and not paying tax or his stamp, yet he still refers to the English as 'pigs'. If it wasn't for 'English pigs', he wouldn't be alive today, nor had any children, nor had the ability to live out his fading years in a nice bug bungalow with lots of geraniums.
This gentleman's attitude pisses me off. He's my grandad.
Incidentally, he's Polish.
I fail to see what is so special about exactly matching numbers.TonkaToy said:
Surely there are people who might well benefit the UK - people with special skills or who a company wants to employ here for a specific reason.
Anyone coming to work in the UK ends up paying tax here and contributing their skills and knowledge to the UK economy.
I can't see what is so important about matching the numbers of people exactly. It is no as if someone going abroad for a year automatically gets health care or any other benefits, and even if they did the cost of these to each country might well be asymetrical even if the numbers of people happened to be equal. Furthermore different countries have different issues - some countries don't have any kind of housing shortage while others do.
What is the big deal about equal numbers? Surely an arrangement based on actual financial costs incurred (if any) would be more relevant? In any case non-residents could be covered by health insurance and otherwise pay for services used, which would remove even this requirement.
They can however get cheap or free education and training, claim benefits and take advantage of the strong pound to travel inexpensively all over the world on holiday. The strong pound and healthy UK economy also means that it is easier to go and set up businesses and buy property overseas.Dissident Junk said:
I somehow doubt that Polish TV has programs like "A Place In The Sun", although of course correct me if I am wrong.
Of course there are going to be asymetric things between a rich country (especially regions within it with very high demand for housing) and poorer countries, but the people from the richer country are still going to come off better even if they can't go ex-pat for a year or two and come home to buy a house. Lots of Brits do become ex-pats but this doesn't make houses in London any cheaper - Brits tend to also try and earn in high wage areas and spend/buy in cheap areas - just like Poles do.
I have yet to see anyone give any clear evidence of this but I have seen stuidied showing the opposite (for wages). I don't believe that immigration is having much of an impact on housing in comparison to the both the movement of UK-residents within the UK and the housing market and prices in general.exosculate said:
Who exactly "can't appreciate this"? Have any of the SWP-bots been posting on this thread yet? I can't say I have noticed anyone on this thread making the automatic link between immigration controls and "racism".
Can you name names or quote a post?
Leaving the country because London is getting too 'foreign' is a bit of an overreaction when you could instead drive for about 30 minutes out of London instead.kidtripod said:
It would also be a bit pointless going to cities like Toronto or Vancouver for example if you wanted an 'anglo monoculture'.
TeeJay, I think you're avoiding the point. To counter what you quoted of me, London's effect is pervasive, not simply throughout the south-east but the UK as a whole. Only regions with strong distinct personalities (which tend to be the extemities like Cornwall) differ in any real sense. The point is poles have a social life to return to in their cheaper area, the native Brits do not, and actually face moving away from home as opposed to moving back.
Multi-culturalism, such as demonstrated Vancouver, is clearly a good thing. However there is a tendency for people to guilt trip the English in England into thinking that being English is a bad thing, and that all the other stuff is inherently better - ex pats abroad aren't subjected to this. This isn't to deny that other cultures have greatly positively influenced what it is to be English (curry!), but that there seems to be a feeling that English pride means automatically BNP supporter and so there's a resistance to it.
In many ways ex-pat communities of Brits (lets take positive examples such as in the US, Canada etc., not the Brits in Spain who are a national embarrassment as far as I'm concerned) manage to live lives simultaneously more easy to be British than in Britain (ie getting the products you want to buy like Marmite and so on, pubs, getting the tv - minor admittedly), yet integrate successfully with locals.
The spiritual home and identity of Britain is now somewhere outside it's own borders. If you ask yourself what it is that defines this country you're now in "bit of land" territory, since naming any cultural trait will have this place in complete uproar.
Multi-culturalism, such as demonstrated Vancouver, is clearly a good thing. However there is a tendency for people to guilt trip the English in England into thinking that being English is a bad thing, and that all the other stuff is inherently better - ex pats abroad aren't subjected to this. This isn't to deny that other cultures have greatly positively influenced what it is to be English (curry!), but that there seems to be a feeling that English pride means automatically BNP supporter and so there's a resistance to it.
In many ways ex-pat communities of Brits (lets take positive examples such as in the US, Canada etc., not the Brits in Spain who are a national embarrassment as far as I'm concerned) manage to live lives simultaneously more easy to be British than in Britain (ie getting the products you want to buy like Marmite and so on, pubs, getting the tv - minor admittedly), yet integrate successfully with locals.
The spiritual home and identity of Britain is now somewhere outside it's own borders. If you ask yourself what it is that defines this country you're now in "bit of land" territory, since naming any cultural trait will have this place in complete uproar.
Brtits do have a social life.kidtripod said:
If you listened to enough people you'd be guilt tripped into anything - from eating meat to speaking with your mouth full. The majority of 'English' and/or 'British' people don't have any big problem with who they are.
The UK is and has always been culturally diverse - as far back as when the Romans, Brits/Welsh/Celts, Saxons, Vikings and Normans all duked it out. More recently you have diverse national (Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English) and regional (eg West country, geordie, brummie, cockney, home counties etc) cultures. Added to this are all the "hyphenated" -Brits and -Anglos from empire and post empire: Anglo-Americans, Anglo-Canadians ... 'British Asians', 'Black British', Anglo-Jewish, Anglo-Indian and so on almost infinitely...
British (including English) culture is really global, but the UK still has a very strong shared national culture of its own - just as France or Germany does.
Maybe you are unable to actually realise what this consists of because to you it is so "normal" and because so many things have been also been exported to and copied by other countries and peoples?
I can say confidently that it is only when I went to live and work in Japan for a year that I realised how many things aboiut European and specifically British - and even English - culture I take for granted and don't even realise are actually 'culture' as opposed to 'common sense' or 'normality'.
I am not going to make a list of things as it would be far too long: "culture" consists of almost everything about a place and people (from food, language, music, ways of thinking, common social conventions and attitudes, superstitions, group dynamics etc). Communities consist of large numbers of diverse people who both share things in common and also have differences between them. The sum total of all these things make a place what it is - everywhere in the world is unique in that these things add up differently. The UK is no different in this respect in that it is also unique.
exosculate said:
People cant appreciate the point because it means looking at their own lazy assumptions and prejudices....
To name names Nino and VP often will say that im right wing,despite the fact that ive continuosly said i believe in a massive redistribution of wealth and power...That for years i was in and around left groups and did looads of militant anti fascist stuff.
Not on the basis of immigration controls - none of you oppose it on the basis of "race".tbaldwin said:
However I do object to the way you racialise topics - for example the kind of stuff you were coming out with on the Brixton thread and thew way you label people by their skin colour and make sweeping generalisations about people on this basis. When I say "you" I mean "tbaldwin", not the other three posters mentioned.
Similar threads
