The Independents Immigration lies....

[belboid]

Those were his exact words were they........Or did you just make that up?

what?

 

[tbaldwin]

there would be were taxes appropriately set (something you rarely if ever mention).

And dont you realise what fMs point was, or are you deliberately trying to obfuscate? You complained (not unreasonably) about what private pension companies are up to, when the majoy pensions shortfall is in public pensions. So your ill tempered and ill thought out shouts were almost utterly irrelevant.

Who do you think is pushing the line that there is not enough money in the public pension pot?

And im in favour of taxing the richer more.....Did you not see the thread i started on Inheritance tax?
Or the threads on education?

 

[belboid]

Its mainly the auditor pushing the line re the public pot, tho of course the private companies back them up. But the public pension pot simply is short of funds - due to long term underfunding thereof. Your claims about it all being private led are nonsense.

Fair enough partially re taxes, I couldnt be arsed to read your inheritance tax thread after the first couple of posts, where you adopted no position. I still doubt you support sufficiently high taxes tho - as you slag of 'old labour' for setting the scene for thatcher, and high taxes [still not high enough] were their speciality.

 

[tbaldwin]

Its mainly the auditor pushing the line re the public pot, tho of course the private companies back them up. But the public pension pot simply is short of funds - due to long term underfunding thereof. Your claims about it all being private led are nonsense.

Have you ever heard about something called a budget?
Its where govts etc decide their spending priorities.....They are not set 30 years in advance usually and if they were most rational people would put some flexibility in the budget plan.......

You have fallen for one of the big Tory lies of our time......

A complete crock of shit.

 

[Anotherfolky]

i agree with most of what you are saying especially the last sentances but!

there are NO labour shortages! .. THIS is the BIG LIE

what there are are people who are not adequately trained

AND maybe more importantly millions of w/c people who REFUSE to take jobs at shit wages/conditions that they poles are prepared to work for ..

Sure I fully accept that at least to an extent, however Poles (and other recent immigrants) are not only doing low paid work but work paid at a 'reasonable' level which I find it hard to believe couldnt be filled by other people. An example which comes to mind was a quote from the Manager of a Bus Company in Reading stating that without Polish drivers they wouldnt be able to service all their routes(mentioned in one of the Independent articles). Given that the company concerned will pay drivers around £20k, not leading to the lifestyle of the local middle classes, but its certainly not a starvation wage either so unless there is a shortage of Labour to fill those vacancies I'd be interested to know why those vacancies arent filled locally because in that case Polish drivers will not be undercutting anyones wages.
In other cases immigrants will be filling vacancies which no one else will do (as you point out), Im not sure that this is undercutting our wages if we arent going to do work filling by Poles anyway.
Perhaps however the situation is a regional one, whilst there may be shortages in some parts of the country there arent in others and I still worry that the concerns about immigration being raised are exactly the same as the ones twenty years ago, or thirty years ago or.........

 

[tbaldwin]

and I still worry that the concerns about immigration being raised are exactly the same as the ones twenty years ago, or thirty years ago or.........

But times have changed......Race is rarely mentioned these days by most opponents of mass migration.

Groups like the BNP are totally unrepresentative of most of these people....

There are millions of people who are either out of work or underemployed in the UK....
Look how many Black people are out of work even in London...They are not all potential BNP supporters but neither would most of them agree with mass migration.

 

[TonkaToy]

It isn't about "national interest", it isn't about "pensions crisises", it's about demographics. National interst can change, crisises can be solved, but demographics are much harder to alter.

Produce a decent argument about how you'll offset the demographic problems caused in just about every avenue of social life by an ageing society, and then you can afford to be sarky. Until then do try not to frame everything you read with your own narrow interests.

There is a pensions crisis because people aren't saving enough money up for their pensions. It's really that simple. If you want Johnny foreigner to come here, to fund someones pension, who's going to fund Johnny foreigners pension? That's your solution to everything, more immigrants. You go on like they are fucking more valuable than oil, gold or the people already here. They are not. They have the same worth as the people already here and just like everyone else they will grow old.

 

[TonkaToy]

Why would it be "unsustainable" under your "one in, one out" ticket?

Now who is the one who can't read plain English. Unlike you, I won't bother to call you names about it.

I never said anything would be "unsustainable" under my "one in, one out" ticket.

What I meant was, you can't keep importing young people to tackle people growing old. That is not sustainable, because those young people, also grow old.

 

[belboid]

Have you ever heard about something called a budget?
Its where govts etc decide their spending priorities.....They are not set 30 years in advance usually and if they were most rational people would put some flexibility in the budget plan.......

You have fallen for one of the big Tory lies of our time......

A complete crock of shit.

that makes no sense whatsoever as following on from your previous 'argument'. you are clearly utterly unaware as to the supposed principals behind national insurance - tho the clue is in the name.

 

[tbaldwin]

that makes no sense whatsoever as following on from your previous 'argument'. you are clearly utterly unaware as to the supposed principals behind national insurance - tho the clue is in the name.

Yeah belboid of course i'm totally unaware......Youve really caught me out with that one!

 

[belboid]

well try devloping an argument that actually makes logical sense then instead of jumping from one tenuously connected point to another!

 

[durruti02]

fucks sake - those figures are entirely fictitious - and you're old enough to know better!

'full employment' up to the late 70s? complete nonsense. and as for you (effectively) claiming that people on incapacity are just dole dodgers!

seriously you are arguing that we do NOT have unemployement between 3 and 4 million?

it is generally accepted that many hundreds of thousends of people on incapacity benefit were offerred it in the 8ts as an alt to going on the dole ..

it is YOUR word that they are 'dodgers' .. i do not have that opinion .. these were generally skilled hard working individuals who were made redundant but had no decent alternative work

the number of decent jobs has declined since the late 7ts esepcially in manufacturing

and er yes the idea that we STILL had full employment in the late 7ts is nonsense .. sorry i am trying to multi task and er ..

but the point stands .. in all previous major immigration periods we had full employment and people were being recruited to do jobs there literally was no one to do .. we could argue that they were also recruited to do jobs people did NOT want to do too ..

 

[tbaldwin]

well try devloping an argument that actually makes logical sense then instead of jumping from one tenuously connected point to another!

tenuously according to you.......My arguement is simply that the whole pensions arguement is a crock of shit.....

You think of yourself as Left wing????? And you come out with total shit.

 

[belboid]

You think of yourself as Left wing????? And you come out with total shit.

do you think by endlessly repeating that statement that anyone thinks you are 'left wing'? I seriously doubt it. Just makes you look a (bigger) prat.

 

[belboid]

we could argue that they were also recruited to do jobs people did NOT want to do too ..

exactly as is argued today abpout the majority of jobs taken by immigrants - so your point is?

 

[durruti02]

Sure I fully accept that at least to an extent, however Poles (and other recent immigrants) are not only doing low paid work but work paid at a 'reasonable' level which I find it hard to believe couldnt be filled by other people. An example which comes to mind was a quote from the Manager of a Bus Company in Reading stating that without Polish drivers they wouldnt be able to service all their routes(mentioned in one of the Independent articles). Given that the company concerned will pay drivers around £20k, not leading to the lifestyle of the local middle classes, but its certainly not a starvation wage either so unless there is a shortage of Labour to fill those vacancies I'd be interested to know why those vacancies arent filled locally because in that case Polish drivers will not be undercutting anyones wages.
In other cases immigrants will be filling vacancies which no one else will do (as you point out), Im not sure that this is undercutting our wages if we arent going to do work filling by Poles anyway.
Perhaps however the situation is a regional one, whilst there may be shortages in some parts of the country there arent in others and I still worry that the concerns about immigration being raised are exactly the same as the ones twenty years ago, or thirty years ago or.........

you are right to an extent .. i guess there will be places in the south east ( which is being TOTALLY economically over heated ) where there will be shortages ..

however i can guarantee those bus driver jobs are at a rate significantly below what would have been expected 20 years ago ..

you also have to take into account the cost of living .. for so many people it is better to sign on and get benefits/HB etc and do a bit on the side than take jobs at the rates being offerred ..

 

[durruti02]

exactly as is argued today abpout the majority of jobs taken by immigrants - so your point is?

i think it would even then been a fair point to ask .. is it in the interest of people to have a racial segregation as regards work??

i am always amazed at how so many on the left think it ok that we get immigrnats to do the shit jobs .. niot sure what you have said on this previously

as i have said before i want immigration on the basis of people wanting to live in another country by choice NOT on the whims of economies, racists like Enoch Powell who recruited abroad for the NHS, and scum like digby jones ..

i know we essentially agree .. i think we only disagree on how much what you think i am arguing sets back workers unity and how much i think what YOU are arguing has set back workers unity ..

 

[durruti02]

exactly as is argued today abpout the majority of jobs taken by immigrants - so your point is?

is there not a point that immigration, from when we had full employment in the 5ts and 6ts, is differrent from now when we have large scale unemployment?


i am guessing you accept my figures of 3 to 4 milionn unemployed?