The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[8den]

You really wont admit being wrong will you? it says on the page, that sinn fein stand by the proclamation, the words are from the proclamation, they don't have to be actually on the page, though the words "equal rights and equal opportunities to ALL it's citizens" are on the page.

No you made us wander down this tangent, it doesn't mean you're right.

 

[Deareg]

No you made us wander down this tangent, it doesn't mean you're right.

So, what part am I wrong about? And, what tangent?

 

[LiamO]

Well if you admit that Sinn Fein were the inherits of the Easter Proclamation, surely you'll have to agree with me that LiamO is incorrect in his claim about 1918 SF not being violent?

Except I did not claim this, did I?

I said that Sinn Fein were not elected on the basis that they would to pursue a campaign of armed insurrection, much less a geurilla war. Sinn Fein was a broad church and contained only a minority of revolutionaries - who were deeply suspicious of Griffith and many of the other leaders.

On the very day that the first Dail met - to begin their campaign of civil disobedience and building an alternative civic structure - militant Irish volunteers, without even the nod from Volunteer HQ, launched their armed campaign in Tipp. Griffith was disgusted and deeply alarmed.

So if Griffith et al. had no idea of the extent to which Sinn Fein had been taken over by the Revolutionaries of the IRB, how the fuck can you seriously argue that the electorate were, and that they voted for War? This is just a post-event rationalisation and basically free-state propaganda.

You'll be telling us next that the good 'old' IRA did not execute informers and spies - but they did. Lots of them.

 

[Casually Red]

We voted for the Belfast Agreement, and We voted to amendment our constitution.

whos we ? there would appear to be 2 of them . A majority of those who voted in the north voted for the instituions outlined in the Belfast agreement while a majority of those who voted in the south voted to drop articles 2&3 . Which means the people of Ireland didnt get " a vote" , no act of national self determination took place . 2 seperate referendums in 2 seperate states on 2 seperate issues were held on the same day . And the demands of the British government - aforeign government in armed occupation of Irish territory - which were put to these dodgy referenda were passed by this formula . In return fora promised peace and a negotiated united Ireland.

so there would appear to be no "we" , no Irish people acting as a unit and most importantly no option for a united Ireland pu to the people . Only British demands for legitimacy and no option for a vote Britian would surely lose if actually put to the Irish people. If you regard this as democratic Id advise you to hop on a plane to Cairo and pull Mubarak ass out of the fire .

You actually sound proud that you can announce the Irish people have assented to another more powerful and aggressive country carving their nation up and claiming you own countrys territory as its own ? You realise people like Abbas and the Vichy government are held up and despised for this attitude despite not even proudly boasting about it like you do ? Have you any self perception ? Do you not realise how wretched you actually sound ? You think this is somehow progressive ? Something to be proud of ?
I know Jer doesnt but yuou have no excuse not having his long list of issues .

 

[Casually Red]

On the very day that the first Dail met - to begin their campaign of civil disobedience and building an alternative civic structure - militant Irish volunteers, without even the nod from Volunteer HQ, launched their armed campaign in Tipp. Griffith was disgusted and deeply alarmed.

actually theyd kicked off even prior to this , these were just the first fatalities of the renewed campaign

 

[LiamO]

actually theyd kicked off even prior to this , these were just the first fatalities of the renewed campaign

I know. Stop being picky. Wait til you read the rest of the thread and see 8den's hysterical historical gymnastics. I'm off to me scratcher.

 

[Casually Red]

That is to say you presume they opposed.

This was the first time the had a chance to vote on the matter.

I don't know what you mean by "opposed" by the way. Lots of people objected to the British Army's and British State's actions in North. It's just we found it equally offensive that the IRA were violently attempting to unite our nation without asking us if we wanted to in the 1st place.

are you cclaiming the Irish people actually dont want a united Ireland ? Why on earth did the British not just permit this to be put to a vote ? Surely it would clear the matter up once and for all . And surely all the political parties in the south included and still do a desire for a united Ireland in their election manifestoes and have done since 1922 .

This is absolutely staggering stuff .

 

[8den]

are you cclaiming the Irish people actually dont want a united Ireland ? Why on earth did the British not just permit this to be put to a vote ? Surely it would clear the matter up once and for all . And surely all the political parties in the south included and still do a desire for a united Ireland in their election manifestoes and have done since 1922 .

This is absolutely staggering stuff .

We renounced our claim to the North as part of the good friday agreement.

I'd like to see a United Ireland, I just don't want to see a drop of bloody split for it.

 

[Casually Red]

LiamO is seriously arguing that Wolfe Tone (who died in 1798) gave the IRA a mandate for violence in the 1970s.

who gave the British army a mandate for violence in Ireland in the 1970s , or at any time before or since ? why have they the right to occupy someone elses country ?
and why do you - enthusiastically it would appear - support this being done to your own nation by another country ?

 

[Casually Red]

We renounced our claim to the North as part of the good friday agreement.
.

there you go with that we again . Which we ? I pointed out that under your argument there appear to be 2 .

I'd like to see a United Ireland, I just don't want to see a drop of bloody split for it

but according to British dicates its not allowed to be put to a vote of the Irish people ?a nd most certainly wasnt

So what you along with the rest of the Irish people might like in their own country has to be suppressed by these undemocratic mechanisms . Do you agree no such vote is permitted because its most likely the Irish people would vote the wrong way if actually given the opportunity ?

 

[8den]

You actually sound proud that you can announce the Irish people have assented to another more powerful and aggressive country carving their nation up and claiming you own countrys territory as its own ?

Serious question.

When was the Island of Ireland one unified nation?

You realise people like Abbas and the Vichy government are held up and despised for this attitude despite not even proudly boasting about it like you do ? Have you any self perception ? Do you not realise how wretched you actually sound ? You think this is somehow progressive ? Something to be proud of ?
I know Jer doesnt but yuou have no excuse not having his long list of issues .

Because I don't think it matters in the long run.

If anything the last 15 years has shown us, particularly the last three years, is that the republic of Ireland barely has the capacity to run itself, never mind lay claim to the Provence.

With the IMF in charge of the Republic for the next 10 years in a very real sense, unless there is radical overhaul of Irelands political system, whereby we take charge of our own affairs to some degree of competency, then we have no business trying to consider taking on the mess that is the 6 counties.

 

[8den]

Except I did not claim this, did I?

I said that Sinn Fein were not elected on the basis that they would to pursue a campaign of armed insurrection, much less a geurilla war. Sinn Fein was a broad church and contained only a minority of revolutionaries - who were deeply suspicious of Griffith and many of the other leaders.

On the very day that the first Dail met - to begin their campaign of civil disobedience and building an alternative civic structure - militant Irish volunteers, without even the nod from Volunteer HQ, launched their armed campaign in Tipp. Griffith was disgusted and deeply alarmed.

Considering several members of his party were in prison for part taking in the Easter Rising, to suggest Griffith was "alarmed" to discover he was in bed with armed revolutionaries is a bit rich.

You'll be telling us next that the good 'old' IRA did not execute informers and spies - but they did. Lots of them.

They at least at some semblance of a national popular mandate.

 

[Casually Red]

I imagine the uber patriots will have the majority of Irish people down as "misguided" or "distracted"....

no , i have them down as not being allowed to vote as a unit to determine their own futures thanks to Britian being permitted to continue to violate national sovereignty and national democracy as they see fit .
Im actually quite confident if the Irish pople were to be permitted to decide as a unit on whether or not thre would be a united Ireland the majority would be in favour of it . And Im equally certain that is why they are not permitted to exercise national democracy and instead keep getting thse gerrymandered things put in front of them in return for promised peace and compromises , stepping stones and all the rest we've heard since Redmond was in short trousers .

Very simply they would vote the wrong way , therefore arent permitted such a vote . Theres nothing uber patriotic about pointing that out .

 

[8den]

This is in essence my point.

Rabbiting on about a "united Ireland" is simply incredibly. The leading spokesperson for the party arguing for a united Ireland possibly ordered the execution of a mother of ten, and they're polling in or around the same level of support as Fianna Fail, a political party who's name is a byword for corruption and skullduggery.

Do you really think we're mature enough to adopt the host of problems and issues of a failed state like NI?

Can we really absorb the cost of the policing, and the bloated civil service, even during the height of fake boom?

 

[Casually Red]

Serious question.

When was the Island of Ireland one unified nation?

when did it have 2 names ?

you seem to b taking your historical cues from Kevin Myers and Ruth Dudey Edwards . I could of course give you a long and detailed essay on this and may have to .

Because I don't think it matters in the long run.

what do you mean you dont think it matters ? you dont care who claims bits of your own country as its own ? thats ..im actually lost for adjectives . I used staggering before and it will suffice . Agin Id remind you of Vichy and others who never thought it mattered either.

If anything the last 15 years has shown us, particularly the last three years, is that the republic of Ireland barely has the capacity to run itself, never mind lay claim to the Provence.

La Provence is in France . The very same corrupt and treasnous snakes who brought you your economic disaster negotiated the position with the brits . You seem to trust their judgement rigidly enough .

With the IMF in charge of the Republic for the next 10 years in a very real sense, unless there is radical overhaul of Irelands political system, whereby we take charge of our own affairs to some degree of competency, then we have no business trying to consider taking on the mess that is the 6 counties.

sadly your own views on what constitues a dignified , democratic and sovereign nation would appear to bear that pessimistic assessment out . But as you already pointed out it doesnt matter in the long run if the Irish people run their country or not . So why you even have a viw on the matter is something best known to yourself .

 

[8den]

Very simply they would vote the wrong way , therefore arent permitted such a vote . Theres nothing uber patriotic about pointing that out .

'vote the wrong way'?

It's the same reason why we don't allow postal voting from the UK and Ireland, be fucked if we're going to let millions of emigrants choose our national destiny.

 

[Casually Red]

This is in essence my point.

Rabbiting on about a "united Ireland" is simply incredibly. The leading spokesperson for the party arguing for a united Ireland possibly ordered the execution of a mother of ten, and they're polling in or around the same level of support as Fianna Fail, a political party who's name is a byword for corruption and skullduggery.

thats irrlevant to the issue . Gerry Adams or Sinn Fein for that matter have got fuck all to do with it . National sovereignty and national democracy have got fuck all to do with individuals and parties . They are inalienable and indefeasible rights of an entire people . All the political parties claim they support a united Ireland and always have done - because they have to .

Do you really think we're mature enough to adopt the host of problems and issues of a failed state like NI?

Id say you sound dreadfully immateure . And id also say its the best way this country could finally grow the fuck up .

Can we really absorb the cost of the policing, and the bloated civil service, even during the height of fake boom?

we cant afford not to . The north isnt the only faild state on the island in case you havent noticed . Its time to grow the fuck up , long past the time .

 

[8den]

Serious question.

When was the Island of Ireland one unified nation?

when did it have 2 names ?

you seem to b taking your historical cues from Kevin Myers and Ruth Dudey Edwards . I could of course give you a long and detailed essay on this and may have to .

Go on then, give me a giggle.

When was Ireland a single nation?

what do you mean you dont think it matters ? you dont care who claims bits of your own country as its own ? thats ..im actually lost for adjectives . I used staggering before and it will suffice . Agin Id remind you of Vichy and others who never thought it mattered either.



La Provence is in France . The very same corrupt and treasnous snakes who brought you your economic disaster negotiated the position with the brits . You seem to trust their judgement rigidly enough .

I don't trust them. At all. And nothing in my posting history would suggest that I do.

However they have been the democratically elected government of Ireland for most of my adult life, and I can't deny that their politics has a great deal of sway among my parent's generation.

sadly your own views on what constitues a dignified , democratic and sovereign nation would appear to bear that pessimistic assessment out . But as you already pointed out it doesnt matter in the long run if the Irish people run their country or not . So why you even have a viw on the matter is something best known to yourself .

For some who mocked my mis spelling of Province as Provence, you could learn how to spell "constitutes"

 

[Casually Red]

'vote the wrong way'?

It's the same reason why we don't allow postal voting from the UK and Ireland, be fucked if we're going to let millions of emigrants choose our national destiny.

what the fuck are you on about now ?

 

[Casually Red]

Go on then, give me a giggle.

When was Ireland a single nation?

when was it not ? do you know what the gaelic word for province is ? how many Irish nations was there then ?

I don't trust them. At all. And nothing in my posting history would suggest that I do.

However they have been the democratically elected government of Ireland for most of my adult life, and I can't deny that their politics has a great deal of sway among my parent's generation.

and what ? how is this relevant ?

For some who mocked my mis spelling of Province as Provence, you could learn how to spell "constitutes"

you realise youve been saying Province..with a capitl P ? Whats that about ?

 

[8den]

thats irrlevant to the issue . Gerry Adams or Sinn Fein for that matter have got fuck all to do with it . National sovereignty and national democracy have got fuck all to do with individuals and parties . They are inalienable and indefeasible rights of an entire people . All the political parties claim they support a united Ireland and always have done - because they have to .

Most give lip service to the idea, because they know the financial burden would be be too great.

Id say you sound dreadfully immateure . And id also say its the best way this country could finally grow the fuck up .

I sound immature. You're suggesting we absorb another nation, who's major subtribe would strenuously and violently object to becoming part of a united Ireland, and you're suggesting we do this to help us grow up?

we cant afford not to . The north isnt the only faild state on the island in case you havent noticed . Its time to grow the fuck up , long past the time .

Again the mind does boggle.

Okay just look at this way;

Do you think either republican or unionist in the north is going to look at the standard of public health care in the republic and consider that acceptable?

 

[8den]

what the fuck are you on about now ?

If we allowed postal voting for Irish citizens, in the US, Australia, and the UK, which political party would be dominant?

Other countries allow this.

This is pretty basic stuff

 

[8den]

when was it not ? do you know what the gaelic word for province is ? how many Irish nations was there then ?

So you're going to admit that Ireland has never been a single nation in any real sense?

and what ? how is this relevant ?

You seemed to think I was some sort of Blueshirt or Soldier of Destiny

you realise youve been saying Province..with a capitl P ? Whats that about ?

I dunno, how come you're only spelling capital with one A?

 

[Casually Red]

oh fuck off you pathetic 2 nationist twat . Youre a joke . Saying that type of shit about your own country is utterly pathetic . Just a minut ago you were saying you wanted your nation to be united , now your claiming a huge chunk of it has no more relationship to you than fucking australia .


pathetic , infantile . Learn how to lose a simple argument with some fucking grace for fucks sake .

 

[8den]

oh fuck off you pathetic 2 nationist twat . Youre a joke . Saying that type of shit about your own country is utterly pathetic . Just a minut ago you were saying you wanted your nation to be united

I'd like the nation to be unified, I'd like the nation to release the shackles of mother church. I'd like to rain donuts.

Doesn't mean it's going to.

, now your claiming a huge chunk of it has no more relationship to you than fucking australia .

Please re read what I wrote.

pathetic , infantile . Learn how to lose a simple argument with some fucking grace for fucks sake .

So ad hominems, with no substance....

Yes I'm the one losing the argument here.

 

[Casually Red]

So you're going to admit that Ireland has never been a single nation in any real sense?

what is this shit ? when has it ever not been ? even the most basic term for province - cuige - means one fifth , one fifth of a single entity. Its people all spoke the sam language . All its ancient religious sites from eamahain macha to Newgrange are all inerlinked going back thousands of years . Do you even know where the word " Ireland" derives from ?

You seemed to think I was some sort of Blueshirt or Soldier of Destiny

No I didnt . I have you down as a 2 nationist Conor Cruise type .

 

[8den]

what is this shit ? when has it ever not been ? even the most basic term for province - cuige - means one fifth , one fifth of a single entity. Its people all spoke the sam language . All its ancient religious sites from eamahain macha to Newgrange are all inerlinked going back thousands of years . Do you even know where the word " Ireland" derives from ?

Which is lovely, and beautiful, but utterly irrelevant.

You claim that the Brits came and ripped our nation asunder, I'm asking when exactly was Ireland one nation, that it was ripped assunder.

No I didnt . I have you down as a 2 nationist Conor Cruise type .

I'm for whatever works for the people, and doesn't have bombs going off.

 

[Casually Red]

I'd like the nation to be unified, I'd like the nation to release the shackles of mother church. I'd like to rain donuts.

Doesn't mean it's going to.



Please re read what I wrote.

I have read what you wote and you claimed that permitting the people of the nation to vote on their own future as a unit to determine their nations future would be no different than giving australians fucking postal votes . Meaning that according to you there isnt a nation to fucking unite in the first place . Something youve been arguing persistently in your other posts before going schizo and claiming there is one afterall, and then changing your mind again . Then changing it back .

Yes I'm the one losing the argument here.

yes, thats why your claiming the people in the occupied part of the nation are foreigners no different from australians

 

[8den]

I have read what you wote and you claimed that permitting the people of the nation to vote on their own future as a unit to determine their nations future would be no different than giving australians fucking postal votes . Meaning that according to you there isnt a nation to fucking unite in the first place . Something youve been arguing persistently in your other posts before going schizo and claiming there is one afterall, and then changing your mind again . Then changing it back .

I'm saying it's complicated. And Both the north and south did vote on the good Friday agreement and it was adopted by both sides, and both countries.

yes, thats why your claiming the people in the occupied part of the nation are foreigners no different from australians

No I didn't

 

[Casually Red]

Which is lovely, and beautiful, but utterly irrelevant.

You claim that the Brits came and ripped our nation asunder, I'm asking when exactly was Ireland one nation, that it was ripped assunder.

Ive pointed out clearly to you and demontrated that even from its earliest times that it was always a single unit and asked you where do you think the word Ireland derives from . The nation gets its very name from the Celtic goddess figure Eriu - a figure that represented sovereignty . The people and the land were always considered one .

tell us when it was 2 nations then ? should be good for a laugh.

One suspects you are trying to claim becuse a few high kings had scraps with each other - just like every other fucking country in europe did - that is somehow a mandate for current partition . A bit rich for someone who was scoffing at Liamo about wolfe tone being a mandate for insurrection and seperatism today .

I'm for whatever works for the people, and doesn't have bombs going off.

no , youre a 2 nationist OBrienite who does not believe the people should have any right to dtermine their future as a nation by themselves . And youve amply demonstrated that is your belief .