The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[Lock&Light]

I'm for whatever works for the people, and doesn't have bombs going off.

Unfortunately the one dosn't always come without the other.

 

[Casually Red]

I'm saying it's complicated. And Both the north and south did vote on the good Friday agreement and it was adopted by both sides, and both countries.

as i pointed out the irish people were not allowed to vote on whether or not they wanted a united Ireland . Because the result would be the wrong one .

Thats democracy Mubarak style , absolutely no different .

No I didn't

yes you did , you even explicitly called the fucking place another nation

 

[grit]

If we allowed postal voting for Irish citizens

As an ex pat this makes me fucking angry. There was a piece about it in the Irish times recently that made me want to punch the screen of my laptop.

 

[8den]

Ive pointed out clearly to you and demontrated that even from its earliest times that it was always a single unit and asked you where do you think the word Ireland derives from . The nation gets its very name from the Celtic goddess figure Eriu - a figure that represented sovereignty . The people and the land were always considered one .

tell us when it was 2 nations then ? should be good for a laugh.

I've never said we were ever two nations, we were never one.

One suspects you are trying to claim becuse a few high kings had scraps with each other - just like every other fucking country in europe did - that is somehow a mandate for current partition . A bit rich for someone who was scoffing at Liamo about wolfe tone being a mandate for insurrection and seperatism today .

No I'm saying that because their was never national unity in the first place, claiming our nation was ripped asunder by partition is rich.

no , youre a 2 nationist OBrienite who does not believe the people should have any right to dtermine their future as a nation by themselves . And youve amply demonstrated that is your belief .

No I'm not.

As mentioned the good friday agreement amply showed that the Irish people were happy to, sign away any rights to NI.

So your point is moot.

 

[Casually Red]

Unfortunately the one dosn't always come without the other.

according to him the British intelligence services dont plant bombs apparently . Hes for the status quo and he's a 2 nationist.

 

[8den]

as i pointed out the irish people were not allowed to vote on whether or not they wanted a united Ireland . Because the result would be the wrong one .

We did vote to change our constitution to strike our claim to NI from that document.

yes you did , you even explicitly called the fucking place another nation

Where did I claim that people from NI were no different from me to Australians.

 

[8den]

according to him the British intelligence services dont plant bombs apparently . Hes for the status quo and he's a 2 nationist.

I never said that at all.

Please retract scurrilous lies.

I shall relink to your post in the morning.

 

[Casually Red]

I've never said we were ever two nations, we were never one.

so how many then ? 3 ? 4 ?

why in your opinion is the gaelic word for province cuige ? a fifth of what do you reckon ? what does it mean ?

No I'm saying that because their was never national unity in the first place, claiming our nation was ripped asunder by partition is rich.

what do you mean there was never national unity ? wheres your source for this ? you keep saying it ad hominem but dont even attempt to back it up . You simply evade the evidence to the contrary.

No I'm not.

As mentioned the good friday agreement amply showed that the Irish people were happy to, sign away any rights to NI.

So your point is moot.

is it fuck .

 

[8den]

As an ex pat this makes me fucking angry. There was a piece about it in the Irish times recently that made me want to punch the screen of my laptop.

Has to be done. Could you imagine the envelope stuffing we'd see from the US?

 

[grit]

Has to be done. Could you imagine the envelope stuffing we'd see from the US?

No it fucking doesn't, if I hold a passport I should have the right to vote. I'm not talking about allowing any yank who claims to have Irish heritage.

 

[Casually Red]

We did vote to change our constitution to strike our claim to NI from that document.

again with the we

The Irish people acting as a unit did no such thing . And Brtian has absolutely no right to demand it of them in return for a promise of peace .

Where did I claim that people from NI were no different from me to Australians.

'vote the wrong way'?

It's the same reason why we don't allow postal voting from the UK and Ireland, be fucked if we're going to let millions of emigrants choose our national destiny.

You're suggesting we absorb another nation,

 

[8den]

so how many then ? 3 ? 4 ?

4 ish divided into sub fiefs. We were never unified.

why in your opinion is the gaelic word for province cuige ? a fifth of what do you reckon ? what does it mean ?

And the relevance of this to the argument that we were one nation is what?

what do you mean there was never national unity ? wheres your source for this ?

A Source for national unity?

you keep saying it ad hominem but dont even attempt to back it up . You simply evade the evidence to the contrary.

Ad hominem, , also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue. See Ara Karamian

pathetic , infantile . Learn how to lose a simple argument with some fucking grace for fucks sake .

OBrienite

You and LiamO, like to attack the character of those you argue against and not the merit of their arguments.

is it fuck .

Another ad hominem.

 

[8den]

No it fucking doesn't, if I hold a passport I should have the right to vote. I'm not talking about allowing any yank who claims to have Irish heritage.

Plenty of Americans who left in their early 20s have dual citizenship, and are now in their 60s they could also vote.

I agree it's not fair. And have travelled back to vote.

 

[Iguana]

No it fucking doesn't, if I hold a passport I should have the right to vote. I'm not talking about allowing any yank who claims to have Irish heritage.

But there are about 40 million Irish passport holders. Many who have probably never set foot in Ireland but quite a few who do have strong views on the place. I was an ex-pat for years, I would have loved have had the right to vote at home, but I do understand why it's a bit of a shit idea.

Anyway there are ways and means. You can get yourself on the postal register within 2 working days of the dissolution of the Dáil. Give the address of an agreeable friend or relative. Get them to post your vote for you.

 

[8den]

again with the we

The Irish people acting as a unit did no such thing . And Brtian has absolutely no right to demand it of them in return for a promise of peace .

None the less we took it.

'vote the wrong way'?

It's the same reason why we don't allow postal voting from the UK and Ireland, be fucked if we're going to let millions of emigrants choose our national destiny.

You're suggesting we absorb another nation,

I'd suggest we both return to this topic in the morning. It's clear we have the wrong end of stick. I was talking about a different matter, than the meaning you've seized upon.

 

[Casually Red]

4 ish divided into sub fiefs. We were never unified.

bollocks , there were 5 provinces , not 4 ish . All part of the one entity . With the same language . The same laws . The same culture . The same religious beliefs . Its seats of kingship and of religiois importance all interlinkd with one another. And the name of the island itself meaning the people and the land were one .

And the relevance of this to the argument that we were one nation is what?

that if the name for a provinc meant one fifth then it was one fifth of a single entity..you have not even attempted to demonstrate how Ireland was not

Ill make it simple..what does 5 fifths equal..Im sure you learned that at school .

Clue . Its not 2 .

A Source for national unity?

no wheres your source for your repeated claim Ireland was never united and never a nation

Ad hominem, , also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue. See Ara Karamian

alternatively just see conor cruise OBrien , 2 nationism , southern unionism and then see your posts

You and LiamO, like to attack the character of those you argue against and not the merit of their arguments.

you have not demonstrated any merit to your arguments , just parroted 2 nationism while even more bizarrely claiming you want your nation united . If its not a nation then theres nothing to unite . Thats simple arithmetic . Just like 5 fifths .

 

[grit]

But there are about 40 million Irish passport holders.

I dont think its even close to that.

 

[Iguana]

Edit, Sorry 40 million potential passport holders. That is how many people have the right to hold one. About half of the recognised diaspora are only two generations removed.

 

[Deareg]

Ireland never had the chance to be one country in the true sense of the word because of England's interference, even though it only had one language spoken throughout the entire island, so it would be fucking unbelievable from any one apart from this spineless wanker to try and use this as a stick to beat people with.

 

[LiamO]

Ireland never had the chance to be one country in the true sense of the word because of England's interference, even though it only had one language spoken throughout the entire island, so it would be fucking unbelievable from any one apart from this spineless wanker to try and use this as a stick to beat people with.

Don't sit on the fence, dearg... speak your mind

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No it fucking doesn't, if I hold a passport I should have the right to vote. I'm not talking about allowing any yank who claims to have Irish heritage.

Why? If you don't live in a country, why do you have the right to vote in its elections? Are you paying Irish taxes? If not, why do you think you should have the right to say who sets those taxes?

 

[LiamO]

poor old 8den. Don't be too harsh on him.

He must be really scared when he clings to his old certainties as tightly as he does. How embarrrassing must it be that Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson etc have proved infinitely more politically flexible (grown up even) than him over the last 10 years? The institutions of the state (such as the RUC), politicians, communities and Unionism in general have all taken tentative steps towards a new disposition - but 8den is stuck, dinosaur like, clinging desperately to what he 'knows'.

The only people I see who are still stuck completely in this completely adversarial mindset are the NI Prison Service (who seem to be determined to bring back the (comforting certainty of) the good old/bad old days - and the malignant revisionists like Eoghan Harris/ the Cruiser etc in the south. What strange bedfellows to choose. But I suppose that assumes 8den actually has a free choice - and I would not be at all convinced that he has.

 

[LiamO]

8den makes a couple of repeated allegations throughout this thread. He whinges about myself and CR of...

1. making Ad hominen attacks

2. pedantically pulling him of spelling mistakes

They say we judge in others what we despise in ourselves, so let's have a little look at 8den's own form on this thread.

1 Ad hominen attacks
Practically every comment 8den makes on this thread is an ad hominen on his nemesis Mr Adams, despite the Op specifically stating that it was aimed at allowing british posters to have their say and despite requesting (particularly) Irish posters to address the issue in hand rather than indulging in yet another pointless round of 'whataboutery'.

His 2nd comment to me? he concludes that my failure to address his strawman argument means...

... you're utter scum.

nothing ad hominen there then, eh?



2. Pedantry and spelling mistakes/typos

and who is the very first to descend to this? Why 8den of course...

Incidentally who's Gerry "Admas"? And what's so "bould" about him.

He even has the cheek to declare a deliberate use of hiberno-english vernacular (the word 'bould') as a spelling mistake on my behalf. Is there no end to his hypocrisy and capacity to publicly demonstrate his arrogant stupidity?




No doubt he will be along presently to once more stamp his feet, erect a strawman or two and congratulate himself on his 'debating skills' which, as the quotes above show, consist mainly of what he claims to find unacceptable in others - strawmen, ad hominen attacks and petulant pedantry. He also seems to believe that if he repeats a lie often enough it will transform into an accepted truth - which may well suffice for the company he keeps but will be most unlikely to pass muster on these politics boards.

I have purposely addressed 8den in the third person throughout this post as - like most posts I have made on this thread - it is aimed fairly and squarely at other readers and posters rather than Violet-Elizabeth himself.

 

[LiamO]

Ireland never had the chance to be one country in the true sense of the word because of England's interference.

It really is a nonsensical argument isn't it? 'England' invaded Ireland in 1168(?). Could england be described as a 'country', as a unitary state, back then? Much less 'Britain'. Of course not. It was a series of interlinked fiefdoms. A bit like France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Russia, Spain, Portugal Italy or (yes) Ireland or any other 'country' 800 years ago really.

Unlike france, germany etc though Ireland was occupied for the next 800 years and denied the development of 'nationhood' enjoyed by so many other european states from the 17th century on. It is hardly rocket science to follow that, is it?

And yet the revisionists consistently trot out this tired old cliche about 'Ireland was never reeeeeally a country'. Yawn.

 

[ViolentPanda]

bollocks , there were 5 provinces , not 4 ish . All part of the one entity . With the same language . The same laws . The same culture . The same religious beliefs . Its seats of kingship and of religiois importance all interlinkd with one another. And the name of the island itself meaning the people and the land were one .

I think that there's an error being made in this debate, and it centres around what is meant by "nation". 8den seems to think it implies a political entity, whereas you appear to go for the wider meaning of a historical entity based around that history and the accompanying mythology (which is pretty much part of what Durkheim famously used in defining what we nowadays call nationality).

Now, was the island of Ireland ever a single political unit? I think not.
Did it, however, have a unifying mythology and history shared by all the indigenes? Historical evidence shows us that it did.

that if the name for a provinc meant one fifth then it was one fifth of a single entity..you have not even attempted to demonstrate how Ireland was not

On a point of order, cannot cuige also be taken to denote "portion" as well as "fifth"?

Ill make it simple..what does 5 fifths equal..Im sure you learned that at school .

Clue . Its not 2 .



no wheres your source for your repeated claim Ireland was never united and never a nation


alternatively just see conor cruise OBrien , 2 nationism , southern unionism and then see your posts

Good old "Cruiser", who held forth that your good Irish Catholics were the finest conmen and conwomen on Himself's green earth.
I knew several journos who worked at The Observer when he was editor. Consensus was that he was an utter gobshite whose opinions changed to suit the currents of power.

 

[LiamO]

Now, was the island of Ireland ever a single political unit? I think not.
Did it, however, have a unifying mythology and history shared by all the indigenes? Historical evidence shows us that it did.

Good old "Cruiser", who held forth that your good Irish Catholics were the finest conmen and conwomen on Himself's green earth.
I knew several journos who worked at The Observer when he was editor. Consensus was that he was an utter gobshite whose opinions changed to suit the currents of power.

Huh. How very dare you. How very dare you indeed. Coming on here with your 'historical evidence'. Humph. Bring all the 'historical evidence' you like. A bit like Michael McDowell... 8den 'knows' what 8den 'knows'... and if you knew what 8den 'knows'... then you would know... that what he 'knows' is FACT... FACT!... geddit?... and if it's good enough for the water-cooler... and good enough for the dinner-party... it should bloody well be good enough for you... so stick that in your pipe and smoke it... Mr Clever Pants.

The quote I have highlighted in blue... is this a direct quote from 8den's CV?

 

[likesfish]

Sombody linked to british intelligence planted two comnpared to thousands planted by republicans and gave it up as a bad tactic.
Thing is the loyalists may be unloved by the rest of the uk they arn't likely to leap into bed with the south.
especailly a south thats proven economically it could'nt orgainse a piss up in a brewey.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sombody linked to british intelligence planted two comnpared to thousands planted by republicans and gave it up as a bad tactic.
Thing is the loyalists may be unloved by the rest of the uk they arn't likely to leap into bed with the south.
especailly a south thats proven economically it could'nt orgainse a piss up in a brewey.

are you saying that the unionists and loyalists have done a grand economic job in the north?

 

[dylanredefined]

are you saying that the unionists and loyalists have done a grand economic job in the north?

Certainly managed to get vast amounts of tax payers money into the north.

 

[DotCommunist]

Sombody linked to british intelligence planted two comnpared to thousands planted by republicans and gave it up as a bad tactic.
Thing is the loyalists may be unloved by the rest of the uk they arn't likely to leap into bed with the south.
especailly a south thats proven economically it could'nt orgainse a piss up in a brewey.

Yes, global economic downturn proves an individual regime to be incompetent. You fucking tool. Christ knows how your missives would sound when crunched through a code/decode channel. 'Stick to single syllable words. This one is illiterate'