The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[The39thStep]

war is what my-nation-state first + protectionism is all about, see history for details, no?

"The protection and safety of our citizens is a priority and the challenges we now face left us with no choice but to act," the European Commission said.

 

[The39thStep]

does that include delivery?

i note it's rather more than the us govt is paying (under $4)

in november az said they'd provide it cheap to developing countries COVID-19 Vaccine Prices Revealed From Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca

apparantly South Africa didnt front up 'development costs' to an already developed product that been approved

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Apparantly they are flogging the vaccine to South Africa at €4.32 a go

They can't be, because they said this...

The coronavirus vaccine produced by Oxford University and AstraZeneca will be available on a non-profit basis “in perpetuity” to low- and middle-income countries in the developing world.

Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine to be sold to developing countries at cost price

That nice Mr Soriot wouldn't fib to us.

 

[bimble]

Its all pretty grim but i think all this talk about WAR and the EU having 'a gun in their hand' (spymaster i'm looking at you) is a bit mental.
None of what is happening makes either side look like the goodies but also none of its surprising is it, given that the interests of UK and EU are directly opposed over a scarce & urgent resource.

 

[Spymaster]

Its all pretty grim but i think all this talk about WAR and the EU having 'a gun in their hand' (spymaster i'm looking at you) is a bit mental.

Why? It's precisely what has happened, as predicted yesterday by SpookyFrank, in a spectacular example of a stopped clock being correct twice a day!

 

[The39thStep]

They can't be, because they said this...



Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine to be sold to developing countries at cost price

That nice Mr Soriot wouldn't fib to us.

Countries have been lobbying the WHO over removing intellectual property rights over vaccines. The EU and UK obviously opposing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Countries have been lobbying the WHO over removing intellectual property rights over vaccines. The EU and UK obviously opposing

View attachment 251940

Wankers.

Edward R. Murrow: Who owns the patent on this vaccine?
Jonas Salk: Well, the people, I would say. There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?

But that nice Mr Soriot only asks for £14.9m a year. It's really not too much to ask.

 

[The39thStep]

A breach of what clause?

Not delivery . Two other suppliers have failed to meet targets as well

 

[mauvais]

No, because what appears in the definitions section is "best reasonable efforts", whereas what the agreement requires of AZ wrt manufacturing is "best efforts" - as someone noted above, these are distinct terms of art.

Missed this, not looked at the full doc and just following along on here. Where is it?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why? It's precisely what has happened, as predicted yesterday by SpookyFrank, in a spectacular example of a stopped clock being correct twice a day!

I actually predicted it wouldn't happen, and only pointed out that if it did it would be an unjustifiable attack on the British public as an act of broad-spectrum vengeance for the perceived (and still highly debatable) failings of a private enterprise.

I still don't think Pfizer exports to the UK will be meaningfully affected. The 'controls' announced are vague and quite possibly toothless, assuming Pfizer's operation is all kosher which there seems to be no reason to doubt. That being said, even if this is just posturing it is still indefensible. I grow more thankful for brexit with each hour that passes tbh.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How does this ' The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems' work in practise?

On current evidence, not well.

 

[Raheem]

Missed this, not looked at the full doc and just following along on here. Where is it?

I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.

I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes and the EU believe that the UK factories have been supplied in part with stuff from EU factories, which apparently would constitute a breach of contract.

So, they can have (and are demanding with menaces) AZ vaccines from UK factories but if the UK has had any AZ vaccines from EU factories, even if this happened before the EU approved said vaccine, then that's not OK?

The phrase 'hmm' springs to mind.

 

[SpookyFrank]

At this point let me state that I begrudge no EU or other citizen access to vaccines. I feel for those on both sides of the channel currently awaiting vaccines and unsure if they'll get them or not. But the EU leadership is sabre-rattling instead of working in good faith to come to a resolution, and no good will come of that for anyone. Anyone except lawyers anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.

I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.

50 years? Are you referring to the auld 30 year rule, which is now the 20 year rule?

 

[mauvais]

I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.

I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.

Ethical maybe but I don't think contractually.

Separate it from the UK vs EU thing. What would you (or anyone) expect a manufacturer like AZ to do in the context of the described pandemic? It's a public emergency but what do we expect of corporations? Because, somewhat laughably, it seems the behaviour of their peers define the expectations.

 

[brogdale]

EU invoking A16

The EU is introducing export controls on vaccines made in the bloc, amid a row about delivery shortfalls.
Under Northern Ireland's Brexit deal all products should be exported from the EU to NI without checks or controls.
But the EU believed this could be used to circumvent export controls, with NI becoming a backdoor to the wider UK.
DUP leader Arlene Foster described the move as "an incredible act of hostility" by the EU.
The EU invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol which allows parts of the deal to be unilaterally overridden.

 

[Smangus]

Reckon this outcome will turn on a court definition of the word "Reasonable".

 

[SpookyFrank]

EU invoking A16

View attachment 251953

There's that 'bad faith' I was talking about.

 

[Raheem]

Ethical maybe but I don't think contractually.

Separate it from the UK vs EU thing. What would you (or anyone) expect a manufacturer like AZ to do in the context of the described pandemic? It's a public emergency but what do we expect of corporations? Because, somewhat laughably, it seems the behaviour of their peers define the expectations.

I'd probably expect them to act in exactly the same beancounting, amoral and dishonest way they have. But I'd also expect reasonable people to recognise it for what it is, rather than start involuntarily humming Rule Britannia.

 

[The39thStep]

The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland' brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .

Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over

 

[andysays]

I'd probably expect them to act in exactly the same beancounting, amoral and dishonest way they have. But I'd also expect reasonable people to recognise it for what it is, rather than start involuntarily humming Rule Britannia.

Are you seriously suggesting that being critical of the EU's actions here is equivalent to humming Rule Britannia, involuntarily or otherwise?

 

[bimble]

At this point let me state that I begrudge no EU or other citizen access to vaccines. I feel for those on both sides of the channel currently awaiting vaccines and unsure if they'll get them or not. But the EU leadership is sabre-rattling instead of working in good faith to come to a resolution, and no good will come of that for anyone. Anyone except lawyers anyway.

There's got to be an element of the EU rattling whatever sabres they can find so as to look tough and assertive for their own home audiences, as it really does appear that the EU has ballsed up the whole vaccine process pretty tragically and everyone knows it.
But at the same time, every vaccine dose they can get / keep is a really valuable thing so there's a real world non showmanship side to their actions too.

 

[Raheem]

50 years? Are you referring to the auld 30 year rule, which is now the 20 year rule?

Aye, that one. I was thinking of Crown Copyright. As you do.

 

[stdP]

Interesting take on this from Spiegel whcih is putting the blame solely at Ursula von der Leyen's feet:

Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. First, U.S. pharmaceutical giant Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech informed Brussels that it would be delivering far less vaccine than planned in the coming weeks. Then, the company AstraZeneca said it would only be delivering 31 million doses of its vaccine by the end of March instead of the 80 million Europe had been expecting. And again, the Commission was caught completely off guard.

Since then, frustration and anger has been growing across the EU. Europe, one of the most affluent regions in the world, is proving to be unable to quickly protect its citizens from a deadly disease, while other countries are showing how it is done.

And the boss is nowhere to be found.

The louder the criticism has grown, the less has been heard from the erstwhile loquacious Commission president. She has, at times, been like the phantom of Brussels. Requests for comment from the press have been systematically blocked by her communications department and she has essentially gone into hiding. This week, though, at the World Economic Forum, she wasn't able to entirely avoid the issue. "Now, the companies must deliver," she said. In other words, the companies are to blame, not us. Not me.

It is, to put it bluntly, a pattern that has occurred frequently throughout her career.

Europe's Vaccine Disaster: Commission President Ursula von der Leyen Seeks to Duck Responsibility

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen is trying to get out of the firing line as anger grows over the EU's botched vaccine rollout. It's not the first time in her career that she has sought to evade responsibility.

www.spiegel.de

I'm not sure what stance Spiegel has with her historically but it's a fairly damning article, suggesting this is all part of her usual blame game.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland' brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .

Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over

View attachment 251954

I reckon I could take him tbh.

 

[Raheem]

Are you seriously suggesting that being critical of the EU's actions here is equivalent to humming Rule Britannia, involuntarily or otherwise?

No. I do think though, that it would be lopsided to focus on those actions as the truly scandalous part of the picture. They do have a more than reasonable complaint, and a pressing to need to action.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No. I do think though, that it would be lopsided to focus on those actions as the truly scandalous part of the picture. They do have a more than reasonable complaint, and a pressing to need to action.

They seem to be complaining that a vaccine they approved sometime after lunch on a Friday should have been delivered in its hundreds of millions of doses by teatime the same day.

They're giving it the big I am about having invested in the vaccine but the fact of it is that if they were to get the vaccines earmarked for the UK they'd be benefiting directly from the contract the UK government made with AZ that enabled them to get that production up and running early. If we're talking about ethics there's obviously more to it than who paid what and when, but argument being me made is not an ethical one, it's a 'disgruntled consumer' one.

 

[bimble]

If the argument being made were explicitly an ethical one it would look like begging though, like weakness, and they can't do that can they.

 

[kebabking]

The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland' brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .

Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over

View attachment 251954

philosophical to the Manager's office, philosophical to the Manager's office...