Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

philosophical said:
Rosslare thriving some more is a possible benefit from Brexit.

www.bbc.co.uk

Brexit: The Irish port of Rosslare is hoping to benefit

Rosslare hopes Brexit will bring benefits as more hauliers seek to avoid the UK land bridge.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...

This is something I'm really interested in though. Its gonna be a political nightmare for the Tories to make people pay any kind of duty or tax on goods coming into Britain from Northern Ireland, which makes me think they just won't. But if they don't, then that means effectively that (once everyone's twigged and supply chains have altered) then all EU trade (to and from) can quite easily continue as long as it goes through NI. Which could potentially mean NI goes from being the poorest nation in the UK to a very wealthy constituent part of it couldn't it?

Obvs in general having even a theoretical border between Britain and NI makes Irish reunification more likely. And I get why people are mentioning that. But actually, if this is right and all trade suddenly has to go through NI, then that will be a massive incentive for the capitalist class to oppose reunification - potentially in the Republic as well.

Am I seeing this right or am I missing something? Obviously legally this is shakey as fuck but in reality businesses are gonna move goods through NI to get around any trade barriers, and who the fuck is gonna stop them? I feel like some people will make a lot of money out of this somehow.
 
SpackleFrog said:
This is something I'm really interested in though. Its gonna be a political nightmare for the Tories to make people pay any kind of duty or tax on goods coming into Britain from Northern Ireland, which makes me think they just won't. But if they don't, then that means effectively that (once everyone's twigged and supply chains have altered) then all EU trade (to and from) can quite easily continue as long as it goes through NI. Which could potentially mean NI goes from being the poorest nation in the UK to a very wealthy constituent part of it couldn't it?

Obvs in general having even a theoretical border between Britain and NI makes Irish reunification more likely. And I get why people are mentioning that. But actually, if this is right and all trade suddenly has to go through NI, then that will be a massive incentive for the capitalist class to oppose reunification - potentially in the Republic as well.

Am I seeing this right or am I missing something? Obviously legally this is shakey as fuck but in reality businesses are gonna move goods through NI to get around any trade barriers, and who the fuck is gonna stop them? I feel like some people will make a lot of money out of this somehow.
Click to expand...
Some people will make money whatever happens
 
Roadkill said:
That's kind of what I meant tbh. Most of the details remain to be settled, and it makes more sense to focus on them than to stick in tribal remainer/leaver camps blaming each other for the shit we've landed ourselves in - which all too many people are still doing.
Click to expand...

But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.

From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.

I agree with littlebabyjesus what is going to happen is how far the "deal" can be pushed.

I also think this is one deal. Nothing to stop a future government coming to power deciding to revisit parts of it it does not lke.

The "deal" is going to be a process. As it goes onthe same faultlines are going to be reproduced.

For example I would be in favour of deal like Swiss had out of EU but retaining free movement.

None of the working class EU people from other EU countries I Ilve and work with in this country see Brexit as doing them any good here. Some have left.

But from what Ive seen from Brexit supporters its not compromise they would make.
 
Last edited:
I think what you're describing is the 'turn a blind eye' option.
I suppose the EU can undercut the trade in Mongolian Yaks by sending them undetected across the Irish border into the UK.
I am not 100% sure that the brexit mantra of controlling the UK borders is achieved by not controlling the UK borders.
 
Gramsci said:
But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.

From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.

I agree with littlebabyjesus what is going to happen is how far the "deal" can be pushed.

I also think this is one deal. Nothing to stop a future government coming to power deciding to revisit parts of it it does not lke.

The "deal" is going to be a process. As it goes onthe same faultlines are going to be reproduced.

For example I would be in favour of deal like Swiss had out of EU but retaining free movement.

None of the working class EU people from other EU countries I Ilve and work with in this country see Brexit as doing them any good here. Some have left.

But that from what Ive seen from Brexit supporters its not compromise they would make.
Click to expand...

I don't think we're disagreeing are we? You're absolutely right the deal is only the start of a long process, and I suppose I'm arguing we ought to be thinking more about that than bemoaning the fact it's happening. In that sense remainers do just have to deal with it. As you imply, though, the question is how stable the deal turns out to be in its fundamentals. That brings us back to the question of whether the current truce in the Tory party lasts or not....
 
Pickman's model said:
with every day johnson remains in charge recollection of may's tawdry administration fades and in contrast to the current incumbent she appears increasingly a more considerable and able premier. of course she was shit even in comparison to the nefandous cameron but she benefits greatly from being followed in office by the only person who could make her appear strong and stable.
Click to expand...
The Trump effect, I can remember what a duffer Dubya was but Trump makes him look a great statesman
 
Gramsci said:
But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.

From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.

I agree with littlebabyjesus what is going to happen is how far the "deal" can be pushed.

I also think this is one deal. Nothing to stop a future government coming to power deciding to revisit parts of it it does not lke.

The "deal" is going to be a process. As it goes onthe same faultlines are going to be reproduced.

For example I would be in favour of deal like Swiss had out of EU but retaining free movement.

None of the working class EU people from other EU countries I Ilve and work with in this country see Brexit as doing them any good here. Some have left.

But that from what Ive seen from Brexit supporters its not compromise they would make.
Click to expand...
And that's where May's culpability comes in. To a lesser extent, Labour are responsible for this as well. There was no reason whatever why brexit could not have included retention of free movement. It was the easiest way to do it, after all.

As the Swiss have discovered, ending free movement has all kinds of other consequences. People voted narrowly to end free movement in 2014, but had a second vote this year following years of deadlock with the EU - the having cake and eating it scenario, essentially, cos they wanted to keep free trade. You might argue that the first referendum in 2014 should have been respected, but the consequences of that vote were such that it was taken back to the people, essentially. I don't see that as particularly anti-democratic as the second vote was better informed than the first one. There, as here, it was nasty r/w nationalists who were pushing hardest to end free movement. The first result was very narrow - tiny, in fact, passing with 50.3% of a 56% turnout. The second vote was not narrow at all. People can and do change their minds. It was 62% of a 59% turnout.
 
Roadkill said:
I don't think we're disagreeing are we? You're absolutely right the deal is only the start of a long process, and I suppose I'm arguing we ought to be thinking more about that than bemoaning the fact it's happening. In that sense remainers do just have to deal with it. As you imply, though, the question is how stable the deal turns out to be in its fundamentals. That brings us back to the question of whether the current truce in the Tory party lasts or not....
Click to expand...

I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light.

ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.

Its how the Labour party deals with in the rest of this parliament that Im not clear about.

Im really surprised my MP Helen Hayes has gone to extent of resigning and abstaining. She is a loyalist. Faultlines are still there imo.

She is not hard left. But her constituency work ( which I know is very good) means she wants independence to represent her Remain constituency views.
 
Gramsci said:
I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light.

ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.

Its how the Labour party deals with in the rest of this parliament that Im not clear about.

Im really surprised my MP Helen Hayes has gone to extent of resigning and abstaining. She is a loyalist. Faultlines are still there imo.

She is not hard left. But her constituency work ( which I know is very good) means she wants independence to represent her Remain constituency views.
Click to expand...
Also, there is no reason whatever why anyone, including the entire Labour Party, could not start right now to push for, for instance, membership of the EEA and the restoration of free movement. It might sound 'remoaner' to some, but this stuff wasn't in the referendum question, and there's no reason at all why a future government couldn't advocate it. Over time, as the consequences of the slow puncture (like that!) become apparent, such ideas, which half the population, including most Labour voters, already supports, could easily grow in popularity.
 
Gramsci said:
I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light.

ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.

Its how the Labour party deals with in the rest of this parliament that Im not clear about.

Im really surprised my MP Helen Hayes has gone to extent of resigning and abstaining. She is a loyalist. Faultlines are still there imo.

She is not hard left. But her constituency work ( which I know is very good) means she wants independence to represent her Remain constituency views.
Click to expand...

I still don't think we're disagreeing! By 'stable' I didn't mean unchanging or undynamic, but just that the whole thing - or large parts of it - doesn't fall acrimoniously apart in short order! I think you're right that the ERG lot will start trying to push the boundaries of it, but it's nevertheless significant that they've accepted it for now and the question is really at what point they start trying to revisit bits of it, and also how they go about it.
 
Reading between the lines, the 'deal' is a sideshow and the Tories have no intention of being bound by it's terms. Just a stepping stone.

There are measures in the agreement for the possible imposition of tariffs if the UK diverges notably from existing standards. Johnson said this should not be viewed by Brexit-minded Conservative MPs as too restrictive.

“All that’s really saying is the UK won’t immediately send children up chimneys or pour raw sewage all over its beaches,” he said. “We’re not going to regress, and you’d expect that.”

Saying it was “unlikely” the UK would impose its own tariffs, Johnson added that any imposed by the EU “would have to be proportionate and approved by the arbitrator”, and if that happened regularly, the UK would revert to World Trade Organization trading terms.
Click to expand...

www.theguardian.com

Boris Johnson admits Brexit deal falls short for financial services

PM says agreement ‘does not go as far as we would like’ over sector’s access to EU markets
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
contadino said:
“All that’s really saying is the UK won’t immediately send children up chimneys or pour raw sewage all over its beaches,” he said.
Click to expand...

Ever since I first saw it, I've marvelled at the specific classicist / politico linguistics of that statement. Both that they won't immediately send children up chimneys (but therefore may do so later), and that they won't pour raw sewage all over our beaches, but may still pour it over parts of them.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Also, there is no reason whatever why anyone, including the entire Labour Party, could not start right now to push for, for instance, membership of the EEA and the restoration of free movement. It might sound 'remoaner' to some, but this stuff wasn't in the referendum question, and there's no reason at all why a future government couldn't advocate it. Over time, as the consequences of the slow puncture (like that!) become apparent, such ideas, which half the population, including most Labour voters, already supports, could easily grow in popularity.
Click to expand...
This would destroy Labour.
 
It'll eventually happen. Not much chance of Brexit being the trigger for the collapse of the EU any more, is there? So it'll be around and the failures of Brexit and the demands of capital and all the individualist consumer stuff will want it.

If you wait long enough maybe even a different incarnation of the Tories who, since they like to try and go back to imagined, impossible good old days, perhaps will figure that this is the mid-2000s or even mid-1970s instead of the 1950s.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
Kemi Badenoch discussion
13 14 15 16 17
Replies
495
Views
22K
pbsmooth
P
tim
  • Poll
The kulaks are revolting - does Urban back big farmer?
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
277
Views
8K
seventh bullet
seventh bullet
chilango
The 2024 UK General Election - news, speculation and updates
280 281 282 283 284
Replies
8K
Views
312K
brogdale
brogdale
Jeff Robinson
Election good news results only
Replies
14
Views
953
ruffneck23
ruffneck23
Gromit
Good news stories
Replies
11
Views
674
mx wcfc
mx wcfc
Back
Top Bottom