The Ashes 2021/22

[RileyOBlimey]

Bringing in the odd youngster into a test team could do well but banking on a flurry of youngsters thrown into fiercely contested matches is high risk and frankly reckless.

Btw if you’re rude or abusive again you’ll go back into the block list.

 

[redsquirrel]

This ignores a harder truth. Whoever was captain, England would have been stuffed in this series.

The point? Their age is irrelevant. And Root, Bairstow, Burns, Stokes, Malan and Buttler are all over 30 in any case. this is not a young batting lineup. At least 5 out of the top 7 in all three of the tests has been over 30.

The point is that these were judged to be the best batters, regardless of their age, and they're collectively not up to it. That's a systemic problem. it's nothing whatever to do with the age at which they were picked.

Yep, like I said all this stuff around 'the wrong team/bowlers/batters' is delusional.

Should Foulkes be picked, probably yes, but the idea that doing so would make some sort of substantive difference is nonsense. Fixating on such chair shifting is the easy way avoiding the systematic problems, the running down of the first class game (perhaps not surprising that it is therefore the issue to Hundred fan boys).

 

[RileyOBlimey]

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Yep, like I said all this stuff around 'the wrong team/bowlers/batters' is delusional.

Should Foulkes be picked, probably yes, but the idea that doing so would make some sort of substantive difference is nonsense. Fixating on such chair shifting is the easy way avoiding the systematic problems, the running down of the first class game (perhaps not surprising that it is therefore the issue to Hundred fan boys).

The first class system was always shite. Talent is too thinly spread over too many counties. The Sheffield Shield with only 6 teams ensures top players face each other more often. You sneer at the Hundred but one of it’s strengths is ensuring a limited number of teams are included so the talent is concentrated. The FC system should be restructured but it will never happen. In fact the ECB is driving it in the opposite direction by including more teams in the first division.

 

[Petcha]

Silverwood going to miss the next test because members of his family (again, why the hell are they travelling with their families) have tested positive as have family members of other support staff.

Which of course also puts the main squad at risk as he took training yesterday. So you never know, they could avoid a 5-0 yet if they can't field a team. Surely they could be away a few months during a pandemic without bringing their wives and kids who understandably will be breaking bubbles? The entitlement. If the next two tests are called off which surely they will be then the ECB should be taking a financial hit from Cricket Australia (who don't share hotel rooms with their families)

 

[Petcha]

Even weirder is that both sides are travelling on a chartered flight together to Sydney where surely members of the England squad are infected. Crazy shit.

 

[planetgeli]

Yep, like I said all this stuff around 'the wrong team/bowlers/batters' is delusional.

Should Foulkes be picked, probably yes, but the idea that doing so would make some sort of substantive difference is nonsense. Fixating on such chair shifting is the easy way avoiding the systematic problems, the running down of the first class game (perhaps not surprising that it is therefore the issue to Hundred fan boys).

You can be critical of the systematic problems AND the decisions that have been made on a more individual level, test by test, series by series. It's only delusional if you think wrong team/wrong etc solves everything, which it obviously doesn't, but game by game some horrific howlers have been made. Not playing Anderson OR Broad in the first Test etc. We were always going to get thrashed. To see our own managerial incompetence adding to that skill deficit (caused by an enslavement for money to the ultra short ball game and anything white ball) is just depressing. And worth criticising too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Silverwood going to miss the next test because members of his family (again, why the hell are they travelling with their families) have tested positive as have family members of other support staff.

Which of course also puts the main squad at risk as he took training yesterday. So you never know, they could avoid a 5-0 yet if they can't field a team. Surely they could be away a few months during a pandemic without bringing their wives and kids who understandably will be breaking bubbles? The entitlement. If the next two tests are called off which surely they will be then the ECB should be taking a financial hit from Cricket Australia (who don't share hotel rooms with their families)

The players made having their families come out a condition of their agreeing to go. I don't blame them for that at all.

It's all very well saying that cricketers used to just put up with never seeing their families, which is true but also was pretty shit for them and for their families. If it's something that can be remedied, it should be imo, and the time these plans were made and agreed, omicron wasn't yet a thing and Australia had hardly any covid, so it wouldn't have been an issue but for omicron. It's a fucker that there's been an outbreak, but that doesn't necessarily make it a stupid decision to bring the families. Without that decision there would have been no tests at all (possibly not such a terrible thing ).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can be critical of the systematic problems AND the decisions that have been made on a more individual level, test by test, series by series. It's only delusional if you think wrong team/wrong etc solves everything, which it obviously doesn't, but game by game some horrific howlers have been made. Not playing Anderson OR Broad in the first Test etc. We were always going to get thrashed. To see our own managerial incompetence adding to that skill deficit (caused by an enslavement for money to the ultra short ball game and anything white ball) is just depressing. And worth criticising too.

Some bad decisions were made re the bowling, but it's the batting (and catching - by those same batters mostly) that has failed. And it's the batting that has been destroyed by the systemic failures of the past 10 years or so. From a decade of plenty in England batting, we've been through a decade of famine, and it's only getting worse.

Something like 20 top-order batters (inc keepers) have debuted for England since 2014 and none of them - not one - averages over 33. The last player to debut and achieve an average over 33 is Gary Ballance! This terrible team has been a long time in the making.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Silverwood and Root’s hubris has resulted in this…I present Exhibit A.


Blatant and crude head games from a reinvigorated, swaggering Warner. This has nowt to do with batting. The greenest of green seamers was on offer and England’s strength is are our world class seamers. So, we didnt play them and decided to bat.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Gary Kirsten thinks coaching the England test team will be “lovely”. I hope everyone keeps quiet until he signs the contract.

Gary Kirsten says England coaching job would be a ‘lovely project’

The former South Africa player and coach Gary Kirsten has declared an interest in the England job, with Chris Silverwood’s position under threat

www.theguardian.com

 

[redsquirrel]

The first class system was always shite. Talent is too thinly spread over too many counties. The Sheffield Shield with only 6 teams ensures top players face each other more often. You sneer at the Hundred but one of it’s strengths is ensuring a limited number of teams are included so the talent is concentrated. The FC system should be restructured but it will never happen. In fact the ECB is driving it in the opposite direction by including more teams in the first division.

You appear to want to double down on the policies that got England to their current standard (and sad as it is despite this drubbing England may still very well be the fourth best test team). The counties bring through the players (and yes there are serious problems there that need fixing). The county system produced the team that one the World Cup.
A solution that makes the game even more commercialised and decreases participation is not solution at all. To address the problem of too much cricket, you are in favour of the creation of another competition (and slightly different format), one that removes the top players facing each other.

The cricket played in the first division of the CC is (or at least was) of a similar standard to the SS. Personally I favour the three division system that was floated at one time but the two divisions is fine. The problem has been the shifting of games to the ends of the season and the general lack of support for the CC. If there is one person who's head does have to roll from this debacle it is Tom Harrison.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

At least there is some honesty in being explicit in your desire to destroy the county system, even if it is harmful nonsense. What is moronic is that you want to double down on the policies that got England to their current standard (and sad as it is despite this drubbing England may still very well be the fourth best test team). The counties bring through the players (and yes there are serious problems there that need fixing). The county system produced the team that one the World Cup.
Your solution is to make the game even more commercialised and decrease participation. To address the problem of too much cricket is to create another competition (and slightly different format), one that removes the top players facing each other.

The cricket played in the first division of the CC is (or at least was) of a similar standard to the SS. Personally I favour the three division system that was floated at one time but the two divisions is fine. The problem has been the shifting of games to the ends of the season and the general lack of support for the CC. If there is one person who's head does have to roll from this debacle it is Tom Harrison.

Destroy the county system? Where did I say that? You’ve constructed a little straw man in your head. The county system does need restructuring but that does not mean destroying it. Don’t bother engaging with me if you’re going to continue with the bad faith argument schtick.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

For the record I would love to see a massive expansion of teams that could compete in a potential knock out 50 over tournament much like the FA Cup. Including club teams, youth teams and womens teams duking it out at the start of the season. This would give a bit of excitement for spectators and increase engagement at the grassroots. The winners at the lowest levels then go on to face teams in higher rated leagues. It would be far more fun than a tedious round robin table and would give “plucky minnows” the chance to get one over on professional sides.

 

[redsquirrel]

Destroy the county system? Where did I say that? You’ve constructed a little straw man in your head. The county system does need restructuring but that does not mean destroying it. Don’t bother engaging with me if you’re going to continue with the bad faith argument schtick.

The whole purpose of the Hundred is to attack the foundations of the country system, to centralise control of the game with the ECB if you can't see that then you really are dim.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

The whole purpose of the Hundred is to attack the foundations of the country system, to centralise control of the game with the ECB if you can't see that then you really are dim.

Yea, that’s enough of you.

 

[Athos]

The players made having their families come out a condition of their agreeing to go. I don't blame them for that at all.

It's all very well saying that cricketers used to just put up with never seeing their families, which is true but also was pretty shit for them and for their families. If it's something that can be remedied, it should be imo, and the time these plans were made and agreed, omicron wasn't yet a thing and Australia had hardly any covid, so it wouldn't have been an issue but for omicron. It's a fucker that there's been an outbreak, but that doesn't necessarily make it a stupid decision to bring the families. Without that decision there would have been no tests at all (possibly not such a terrible thing ).

I think it says something about their mentality - desire, toughness - that they'd consider declining the call up to play for England in the Ashes, away in Australia, though.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Silverwood and Root’s hubris has resulted in this…I present Exhibit A.


Blatant and crude head games from a reinvigorated, swaggering Warner. This has nowt to do with batting. The greenest of green seamers was on offer and England’s strength is are our world class seamers. So, we didnt play them and decided to bat.

David Warner's top tip: be a cheating sack of shit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it says something about their mentality - desire, toughness - that they'd consider declining the call up to play for England in the Ashes, away in Australia, though.

They're sick of covid bubble life. And England have played a lot right through covid, much more than the likes of Australia.

An Aussie test specialist such as Nathan Lyon has had most of the last 18 months off. Now that brings its own issues due to lack of match sharpness but he hasn't spent months on end locked away from the world while non cricketers have enjoyed substantial freedoms.

I think last year it was more possible to think you were lucky at least to be playing when others were locked down, but the persistence of bubbles into this year is clearly taking its toll. We're seeing a fair few players now self-rationing, particularly all format players. Ipl followed by t20 WC followed by test tours. That would be tough in normal times. In bubble times, it's proving too much. Something needs to be done to stop more players from walking away from test cricket. Moralizing at them that they're not tough enough isn't going to work.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For the record I would love to see a massive expansion of teams that could compete in a potential knock out 50 over tournament much like the FA Cup. Including club teams, youth teams and womens teams duking it out at the start of the season. This would give a bit of excitement for spectators and increase engagement at the grassroots. The winners at the lowest levels then go on to face teams in higher rated leagues. It would be far more fun than a tedious round robin table and would give “plucky minnows” the chance to get one over on professional sides.

Bit like when the minor counties competed in the 55 and 60 over comps?
The games were generally extremely one-sided.

Of course one of the effects of the hundred has been the gutting of the 50 over comp. It's virtually a second team comp now, ironically enough many of the players primarily red ball players.

Imo the solution to the CC is easy enough. You go back to the system that produced a string of high quality test batters in the 2000s. Two divisions of nine, 16 games, matches across the whole season not squeezed into spring and autumn, regulations to produce good pitches. Not necessarily flat pitches. Pitches with a bit of pace that will break up as the game goes on. I'd also relax the regs over overseas players.

But you can't do that and the Hundred.

 

[Athos]

They're sick of covid bubble life. And England have played a lot right through covid, much more than the likes of Australia.

An Aussie test specialist such as Nathan Lyon has had most of the last 18 months off. Now that brings its own issues due to lack of match sharpness but he hasn't spent months on end locked away from the world while non cricketers have enjoyed substantial freedoms.

I think last year it was more possible to think you were lucky at least to be playing when others were locked down, but the persistence of bubbles into this year is clearly taking its toll. We're seeing a fair few players now self-rationing, particularly all format players. Ipl followed by t20 WC followed by test tours. That would be tough in normal times. In bubble times, it's proving too much. Something needs to be done to stop more players from walking away from test cricket. Moralizing at them that they're not tough enough isn't going to work.

I'm not moralising at them. And I wouldn't propose forcing them to tour without their families. Just pointing out the fact they won't tells me they don't have the mental and emotional fortitude necessary to play test cricket.

 

[marty21]

Apart from Stokes, has any current England player been over to Australia for their domestic season ? Aussies have come over to England for years to play English domestic cricket , surely it would be a plus if English players played more over there ?

 

[strung out]

I think it says something about their mentality - desire, toughness - that they'd consider declining the call up to play for England in the Ashes, away in Australia, though.

Sorry, but I don't think players refusing to be away from wives, children and families for four months says anything about their toughness or desire, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged.

 

[Athos]

Sorry, but I don't think players refusing to be away from wives, children and families for four months says anything about their toughness or desire, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged.

How can it not? What they're willing (or not willing) to forego in order to play is a pretty explicit indication of how badly they want it. And of the extent to which they have the toughness to cope with that deprivation.

 

[strung out]

How can it not? What they're willing (or not willing) to forego in order to play is a pretty explicit indication of how badly they want it. And of the extent to which they have the toughness to cope with that deprivation.

It's harmful, damaging shit, both to the players and wider society, to portray the image that men are weak and lack desire if they're committed to their families. We shouldn't be encouraging it

 

[Athos]

It's harmful, damaging shit, both to the players and wider society, to portray the image that men are weak and lack desire if they're committed to their families. We shouldn't be encouraging it

It's possible to be committed to your family, but willing to forego seeing them for a short time, as do all service men and women.

 

[strung out]

It's possible to be committed to your family, but willing to forego seeing them for a short time, as do all service men and women.

Lol, test cricket is not like going off to war.

Just let them see their families ffs.

 

[Athos]

Lol, test cricket is not like going off to war.

Just let them see their families ffs.

Most time away isn't at war. Nor is it for the many people who regularly work overseas.

And, as I've said, I'm not proposing not letting them see their families.

 

[strung out]

Most time away isn't at war. Nor is it for the many people who regularly work overseas.

And, as I've said, I'm not proposing not letting them see their families.

Well why are you arguing this then if you're not proposing it?

 

[Athos]

Well why are you arguing this then if you're not proposing it?

I'm saying their choice tells us something about them. That's not the same as saying they should not be allowed to make that choice.