RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
…and Ramprakash:
The Ashes 2021/22
- Thread starter RileyOBlimey
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Without wishing to be cruel, the problem with England atm is that they have too many Mark Ramprakash-like players. Does he say that?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I recall Paul Collingwood in particular as a player who rarely made headlines with the bat or the ball but who reliably made good slip catches. He could also defend consistently well and so was a great batting partner for the more attacking players. I fear we shall not see his like again
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Steve Harmison has calmed down a bit.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
tbh Morgan has proved himself not great at red ball cricket both for England and Middx. He would probably average well under 30, like Brearley.
I prefer the idea of Moeen or Vince. Both have experience as captains, both are well regarded as captains. Both are more likely to contribute with bat or ball than Morgan.
Can't see it happening with Moeen. Feels like that ship has sailed, although he's probably still a decent shout as England's spin option in England. But Vince, why not? And at least he's a pleasure to watch for however long he stays in.
Morgan has a test a average of 30 and 33 for FC.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Exactly. Not good and that was years ago. He'd be likely to be worse now. His recent white ball form is also poor. He's getting on.
He's not the answer imo. England can't afford to just give up a batting spot.
In fact, I'd go further and make a blanket statement. The answer to England's test woes is not to go looking around among the white ball specialists.
Also, the idea that England got stuffed cos Joe Root is a bad captain is wrongheaded. He may have reached the end as captain, but whoever takes over will be in charge of the same batters. He can't bat for anybody else and he can't catch for anybody else, and the same will be true of his successor. Fundamentally, those are the two areas where England have been found wanting.
Morgan's brand of no-fear batting has worked in white ball cricket because it often doesn't matter if you get out. In test matches, it always matters if you get out. Those occasions when Morgan's team goes for it and gets beaten heavily as a result? Well adopting a similar approach to test cricket would end in that result every match.
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RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
His batting is not the issue, it’s leadership. Root’s leadership has failed in several key ways. Morgan’s leadership is what is needed. However, as I mentioned earlier he is at the ned of his career.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This ignores a harder truth. Whoever was captain, England would have been stuffed in this series.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Likely to lose but likely not devastated. Batting first at the Gabba on a comedy green seamer? Madness. Leaving out Broad who terrorised one of Australia’s main weapons to the point that Warner averaged 9 in the last Ashes? Stupid.
Setting attacking fields for Leach when he was clearly going to spanked?
Not playing Wood when he was fit in Adelaide…for tactical reasons?!
Blaming the bowlers for the Adelaide defeat when only 236 runs were put on the board in the first innings and 192 in the second? Not OK.
Let’s not forget his treatment of Moeen in India where he singled him out for blame for going home on a planned break but didn’t target any other players for doing the same.
Leaders affect the mindset of a team. Root’s leadership has been in the words of Michael Atherton “beyond bad”.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Warner now has a re-inflated ego. This could have been avoided if he had to face Broad that first morning at the Gabba.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Revitalised David Warner wants Australia to beat India in India | Cricket News - Times of India
Cricket News: An Ashes series win in England in 2023 and defeating India in their own backyard are the two important milestones Australia opener David Warner is eye
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
It looks like Root will be staying due to a lack of alternatives in the current squad.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Berry in the Torygrh:
These reasons have been amply documented in these pages since Joe Root won the toss on the morning of Dec 8 and, after selecting a balanced attack, chose to bat first. He put his team’s head in a noose from which they never escaped. When Australia’s fast bowlers ran amok on a grassy, seaming pitch in Melbourne, it was simply the final tightening. Both in advance and hindsight, the single most influential factor in this series was always going to be Australia’s superiority in fast bowlers: taller, quicker, yet no less accurate than England’s fast-mediums.
The second most influential factor was that Australia’s players, bar five, had been competing in the Sheffield Shield – tough four-day cricket – and were thus well-prepared. The exceptions were David Warner and Steve Smith, who had all the benefits of local knowledge, and their three strike bowlers, who had at least not been over-bowled. Immediately, Root played straight into the hands of Pat Cummins, Mitchell Starc and Josh Hazlewood by batting first on a green pitch.
Yes, England had uniquely little match practice going into this Ashes series, and it soon became the same old story of disintegration: but this was all the more reason why England should not have started by playing to Australia’s strongest suit. Root had to be persuaded by wiser counsel to bowl first in Brisbane, with an all-seam attack, in order both to maximise the conditions and to attack Australia at their most vulnerable point.
Their Achilles heel was Warner’s complete failure against Stuart Broad’s round-the-wicket assault in the previous Ashes of 2019. By batting first and selecting a spinner instead of Broad, Root threw away his only ace. England defeats in Australia traditionally end in an orgy of blood-letting at the behest of the media and, increasingly in the era of social media, the public.
These reasons have been amply documented in these pages since Joe Root won the toss on the morning of Dec 8 and, after selecting a balanced attack, chose to bat first. He put his team’s head in a noose from which they never escaped. When Australia’s fast bowlers ran amok on a grassy, seaming pitch in Melbourne, it was simply the final tightening. Both in advance and hindsight, the single most influential factor in this series was always going to be Australia’s superiority in fast bowlers: taller, quicker, yet no less accurate than England’s fast-mediums.
The second most influential factor was that Australia’s players, bar five, had been competing in the Sheffield Shield – tough four-day cricket – and were thus well-prepared. The exceptions were David Warner and Steve Smith, who had all the benefits of local knowledge, and their three strike bowlers, who had at least not been over-bowled. Immediately, Root played straight into the hands of Pat Cummins, Mitchell Starc and Josh Hazlewood by batting first on a green pitch.
Yes, England had uniquely little match practice going into this Ashes series, and it soon became the same old story of disintegration: but this was all the more reason why England should not have started by playing to Australia’s strongest suit. Root had to be persuaded by wiser counsel to bowl first in Brisbane, with an all-seam attack, in order both to maximise the conditions and to attack Australia at their most vulnerable point.
Their Achilles heel was Warner’s complete failure against Stuart Broad’s round-the-wicket assault in the previous Ashes of 2019. By batting first and selecting a spinner instead of Broad, Root threw away his only ace. England defeats in Australia traditionally end in an orgy of blood-letting at the behest of the media and, increasingly in the era of social media, the public.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Gary Kirsten is again being suggested as a replacement coach. He would likely stop illogical decisions and improve the batting…hopefully in time for 2023.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
He makes a solid point that previous good test players were blooded later in their careers, whereas inexperienced players in the current crop are thrown in much younger. Highlighting that other players such as Vince, Robson et al were cast away after not performing and not getting a second look.
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
Been listening to a lot of opinions in the last couple of days, from a sad-sounding Aggers to a genuinely seething Steve Harmison. Most seem agreed that the problems run much deeper than this pisspoor squad and pisspoor coaching / leadership. In summary;
i. Root is an England great with the bat, but not a captain;
ii. Silverwood / coaching staff likely to be overhauled;
iii. ECB have dropped the ball by being obsessed with money / white-ball cricket and neglected the longer form which is supposed to prepare younger players for the step up to Test cricket; as it is shoehorned into April / early May and September, it doesn't provide adequate preparation at all;
iv. unfortunately the county game, watched by a hundred or so retired accountants, librarians and former Tory MPs on an average day, loses money hand over fist;
v. county cricket means defensive batting on green wickets against medium pacers, i.e. totally useless for facing genuinely fast bowlers in Australian conditions. No wonder England's top order (Root excepted) has looked like they've gone to the crease pissed in this tour. Poor Darren Stevens, Kent's 45 year old seamer who bowls around 75 mph on green wickets, has been singled out a lot for criticism;
vi. a complete re-build of the red ball side of the game, with the same intensity as the re-build of the one day side a few years back, needs to happen from the ground up, which probably means England being poor for a while whilst the current crop are sluiced out;
vii. England have 'papered over the cracks' for a number of years and it has finally bit them hard on the arse in this tour. Broad and Anderson will be done in 2 years max. The batting is chronic and worryingly Root says that this squad represents the best 18 players in England. We lack a decent wicketkeeper and have no spinner beyond Leach's cosplay. Poor Stokes has been put under far too much pressure / expectation given that he was just returning from some time out for mental health reasons.
In short, a kneejerk sacking of everyone barely scratches the surfance of England's problems. We'll need to go through 3-5 years of this before we can begin to think of having the sort of Test team that did so well between c. 2005-12. The calendar needs to stop being so obsessed with shit like the Hundred, and get back to the nuts and bolts of the game; the red ball Test team and the white ball long form one dayers. The balance is all awry.
Edited to add: This is savage on Silverwood and although sacking everyone is clearly not the answer, he is surely a dead man walking.
i. Root is an England great with the bat, but not a captain;
ii. Silverwood / coaching staff likely to be overhauled;
iii. ECB have dropped the ball by being obsessed with money / white-ball cricket and neglected the longer form which is supposed to prepare younger players for the step up to Test cricket; as it is shoehorned into April / early May and September, it doesn't provide adequate preparation at all;
iv. unfortunately the county game, watched by a hundred or so retired accountants, librarians and former Tory MPs on an average day, loses money hand over fist;
v. county cricket means defensive batting on green wickets against medium pacers, i.e. totally useless for facing genuinely fast bowlers in Australian conditions. No wonder England's top order (Root excepted) has looked like they've gone to the crease pissed in this tour. Poor Darren Stevens, Kent's 45 year old seamer who bowls around 75 mph on green wickets, has been singled out a lot for criticism;
vi. a complete re-build of the red ball side of the game, with the same intensity as the re-build of the one day side a few years back, needs to happen from the ground up, which probably means England being poor for a while whilst the current crop are sluiced out;
vii. England have 'papered over the cracks' for a number of years and it has finally bit them hard on the arse in this tour. Broad and Anderson will be done in 2 years max. The batting is chronic and worryingly Root says that this squad represents the best 18 players in England. We lack a decent wicketkeeper and have no spinner beyond Leach's cosplay. Poor Stokes has been put under far too much pressure / expectation given that he was just returning from some time out for mental health reasons.
In short, a kneejerk sacking of everyone barely scratches the surfance of England's problems. We'll need to go through 3-5 years of this before we can begin to think of having the sort of Test team that did so well between c. 2005-12. The calendar needs to stop being so obsessed with shit like the Hundred, and get back to the nuts and bolts of the game; the red ball Test team and the white ball long form one dayers. The balance is all awry.
Edited to add: This is savage on Silverwood and although sacking everyone is clearly not the answer, he is surely a dead man walking.
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RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Remember England has possibly the best keeper in the world but decided not to select him.
www.kiaoval.com
…and he scored runs for the England Lions against Australia A.
www.espncricinfo.com
Ben Foakes praised by cricketing world - Kia Oval
Surrey & England wicket keeper Ben Foakes has been praised by the cricketing world after his performance in the second...
www.kiaoval.com
…and he scored runs for the England Lions against Australia A.
AUS-A vs LIONS Cricket Scorecard, Tour Match at Brisbane, December 09 - 12, 2021
Get cricket scorecard of Tour Match, AUS-A vs LIONS, England Lions in Australia 2021/22 at Ian Healy Oval, Brisbane dated December 09 - 12, 2021.
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Lot of Aussies bitching BTL on this guardian team of the year. despite them making it pretty clear at the top they compiled the list pre-Melbourne. Although I agree it's still a bit mad Cummins isn't there, or Marnus I guess. But Root's scored centuries everywhere, Williamson is easily the stand out captain in world cricket. Not sure Jamieson should be in there. But there's only 11 spots and maybe the Aussies should give the bubble thing a go and leave their own shores a bit more.
www.theguardian.com
The Spin | The men’s Test cricket team of the year: from Williamson to Sharma
Our special team of selectors make their pick for the best international Test team of the past 12 months … with one caveat
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
In addition to the probable best keeper in the world not being picked, England also has a world class wrist spinner that wasn’t courted.
These are Rashid’s words last year…
On a possible return to the Test team for the tour to Australia, he added: "It's a long way away, a lot can happen. You don't know where people will be, their form or injuries.
"How my mindset works, I don't think about that kind of stuff. I think we have to see what happens closer the time."
www.bbc.com
He clearly was leaving the door open to discuss an Ashes appearance.
Rashid has a wealth of experience and has developed his game in recent years. He would also offer a few runs at the bottom of the order too.
These are Rashid’s words last year…
On a possible return to the Test team for the tour to Australia, he added: "It's a long way away, a lot can happen. You don't know where people will be, their form or injuries.
"How my mindset works, I don't think about that kind of stuff. I think we have to see what happens closer the time."
Adil Rashid: England spinner not thinking about playing Test cricket - BBC Sport
Leg-spinner Adil Rashid says he is not thinking about whether he will play Test cricket again and does not know if he will available for this winter's Ashes tour.
www.bbc.com
He clearly was leaving the door open to discuss an Ashes appearance.
Rashid has a wealth of experience and has developed his game in recent years. He would also offer a few runs at the bottom of the order too.
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
I think the decisionmaking around the games, the apparent unfolding of the plan to not play Broad and Anderson first, then not Wood in Adelaide, before finally getting Anderson and Wood together in Melbourne (and our best bowling performance so far) looks absolutely catastrophic.
On field the way fields were set for Leach and the quality of fielding and wicket keeping let down the bowlers who were picked.
It shouldn't take two tests to work out who your best bowlers are and how to play them. It shouldn't be three tests down and absolutely no clue what the top order should be, except for Root and Malan.
Watching this series has been like watching a group of players who've not met before, being coached by a guy who doesn't entirely know the strengths and weaknesses of his squad and captained by a guy who's the best batsman but isn't sure how to get the best out of them tactically.
It's been grim gruel, lightened by Jimmy's bowling and Wood being an absolute menace.
On field the way fields were set for Leach and the quality of fielding and wicket keeping let down the bowlers who were picked.
It shouldn't take two tests to work out who your best bowlers are and how to play them. It shouldn't be three tests down and absolutely no clue what the top order should be, except for Root and Malan.
Watching this series has been like watching a group of players who've not met before, being coached by a guy who doesn't entirely know the strengths and weaknesses of his squad and captained by a guy who's the best batsman but isn't sure how to get the best out of them tactically.
It's been grim gruel, lightened by Jimmy's bowling and Wood being an absolute menace.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
English cricket is in disarray – and it’s a metaphor for the whole country
(Source: Mark Thomas/REX)
(Source: Mark Thomas/REX)
"By far the most important thing that happened in English cricket this year was not the Ashes defeat but the exposure of the game’s institutionalised racism ..."
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Chris Silverwood and family are now in isolation due to another covid infection: England touring party has a seventh positive COVID-19 test
I doubt he’ll be too cut up about missing the next test.
I doubt he’ll be too cut up about missing the next test.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's not a great point. Great players mostly debut young. Root, Cook, and looking abroad, Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, a plethora of examples. Burns debuted relatively late in his career. Either way, they've had a while to get going.
Vince, Robson etc were ditched after a shorter period, but standards were higher then. And does he mention Carberry? He's exhibit A in this regard. Compton is exhibit B as they were actively trying to get rid of him before he was even dropped (same is probably true of Carberry in the last test of 2014 Ashes - didn't matter what he did (made a fighting 40-odd as it happens) he was going to be dropped anyway).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't want to be mean to Mark Ramprakash. I think he was treated very badly by England in the 90s and if he were to replay his test career 100 times, he'd always average more than he did, but I'm afraid I have to see everything he says through the lens of everything he did. He's making excuses for talented people underperforming.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Strauss was 26 or 27 on his test debut. I was at Lords when he scored that century, it was obvious how good he was going to be. He came into the England side with solid experience behind him.
Vaughan was again around 27 when he first played test cricket. He did pretty well.
Trott was 28.
Graeme Swann was 29 before being brought into he test side. How old was Bess when he was chucked into the format? 20?
Playing the most complicated and challenging format demands experience. Yes, there are exceptions with the wonder talents you mentioned but they are rare any team is lucky to have 1 or 2 top players in their side. Most of the side will need more experience to perform.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
ok I've randomly picked the current India team playing SA atm. As a top 6, they're pretty solid, lowest average 36, highest 50, all more than 1,000 test runs.
Debut ages:
22
27
22
22
24
20
Debut ages:
22
27
22
22
24
20
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Let's do NZ. The NZ top six in their last test:
21
28
28
23
24
27
Bit more mixed, but bear in mind that Williamson is absent from that list due to injury - debut aged 20 - while others in the list, such as Will Young (28) have failed to gain selection previously cos there are so many good players ahead of them ( same with Agarwal (27) for India).
Something similar can be said of Strauss - he broke into a very strong England batting lineup. He wasn't gifted a place in desperation, he replaced Michael Vaughan, grabbing an opportunity that came up through an injury to a star player. He forced out Nasser Hussain when Vaughan came back. Really, that is a world away from where we are now. A need to perform straight away to force your way into the team.
The stars in that NZ team, the best players by average - Latham, Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls - all debuted before the age of 25.
21
28
28
23
24
27
Bit more mixed, but bear in mind that Williamson is absent from that list due to injury - debut aged 20 - while others in the list, such as Will Young (28) have failed to gain selection previously cos there are so many good players ahead of them ( same with Agarwal (27) for India).
Something similar can be said of Strauss - he broke into a very strong England batting lineup. He wasn't gifted a place in desperation, he replaced Michael Vaughan, grabbing an opportunity that came up through an injury to a star player. He forced out Nasser Hussain when Vaughan came back. Really, that is a world away from where we are now. A need to perform straight away to force your way into the team.
The stars in that NZ team, the best players by average - Latham, Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls - all debuted before the age of 25.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The point? Their age is irrelevant. And Root, Bairstow, Burns, Stokes, Malan and Buttler are all over 30 in any case. this is not a young batting lineup. At least 5 out of the top 7 in all three of the tests has been over 30.
The point is that these were judged to be the best batters, regardless of their age, and they're collectively not up to it. That's a systemic problem. it's nothing whatever to do with the age at which they were picked.
The point is that these were judged to be the best batters, regardless of their age, and they're collectively not up to it. That's a systemic problem. it's nothing whatever to do with the age at which they were picked.
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RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Age is clearly not irrelevant. Test cricket is not just about being able to play fancy shots. Mental resilience and judgement are clearly vital skills that demand experience for most players.
From the players you listed above:
-Root is one of those magical players - one of the greatest batters England has ever produced. He is an anomaly.
-Bairstow was thrown back into the side as Root and Silverwood’s gamble on very young and inexperienced players failed. He was only there as a desperate backfill for the youngster Pope.
-Burns, his flawed technique, defended by Root, has been ridiculed widely for a long time. He should never have been in the side.
-Stokes is another rare talent that is the envy of most sides.
-Malan’s inclusion was another desperate move when the gamble on youth backfired. He is the world No. 1 T20 batsmen and should have been part of the squad from the start of the preparations.
-Buttler is Ed Smith’s pipe dream and Root’s emotional support bunny. He should not have been in the test side.
So, once in a generation talents may do well coming into test cricket early but for most mortals it is too significant step up before gaining solid experience.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You just ignoring what I post, then? you're talking total crap.
Can players do well debuting older? Hell yes. You're never too old, but generally it's the very successful teams into which older players debut cos they've been forced to wait due to the strength of the team. See Australia in their dominant years - Michael Hussey, Darren Lehmann, et al.
But do a huge number of successful test batters start young and have success very early? Yes, they do. There is a very, very long list. The fact I chose a random set of two teams was intended to show that. It's not at all once in a generation talents.
Can players do well debuting older? Hell yes. You're never too old, but generally it's the very successful teams into which older players debut cos they've been forced to wait due to the strength of the team. See Australia in their dominant years - Michael Hussey, Darren Lehmann, et al.
But do a huge number of successful test batters start young and have success very early? Yes, they do. There is a very, very long list. The fact I chose a random set of two teams was intended to show that. It's not at all once in a generation talents.
