The American mass shooting thread

[Dogsauce]

thing is the tactic that police use after Columbine is you confront the shooter your not dealing with a hardened killer you're dealing with somebody throwing a tantrum with a gun if you wait the scum continues to kill till they run out of ammo or get stopped.
now finding the POS might be difficult but waiting achieves fuck all

How would they know? How would they guess that this was a pupil and not a terror attack, or a disgruntled parent, or several shooters? All you have is the sound of many shots being fired, from a direction you can only guess at. It would be beyond heroic to take that on, stupid would be a better description. Plus the kid was an experienced shooter, not a no-hoper that had pinched his dad's gun from the cabinet at home.

 

[8ball]

How would they know? How would they guess that this was a pupil and not a terror attack, or a disgruntled parent, or several shooters? All you have is the sound of many shots being fired, from a direction you can only guess at. It would be beyond heroic to take that on, stupid would be a better description. Plus the kid was an experienced shooter, not a no-hoper that had pinched his dad's gun from the cabinet at home.

What a bizarre post...

Why would it make a difference until you've assessed the situation?
And why would it make a difference being a disgruntled parent as opposed to a student?

And what of the 'experienced shooter' bit? Should he have hung back until he was sure the shooter was incompetent?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

This is all just a distraction isn't it. Maybe he should have run in or not. The point is that firstly this is going to happen sometimes regardless of what the first responder 'should' do, and secondly that even if he'd run in there, done a couple of rolls for effect, nailed the killer between the eyes with a single shot and then come out with a pithy quip, you've still got a bunch of dead schoolkids. Scapegoating this guy is just a way of avoiding the issues, even if ideally he might have acted differently.

 

[8ball]

Probably not a massive distraction for a lot of those parents whose kids died when they thought an armed cop
was protecting them.

 

[agricola]

Will be quite a storm if his version of events turns out to be true.

Won’t affect Trump, though, sadly. The truth has no bearing for him whatsoever.

One would have thought it (his account) would be an easy thing to prove or disprove, just release the transcripts.

 

[Pickman's model]

Probably not a massive distraction for a lot of those parents whose kids died when they thought an armed cop
was protecting them.

as long as schools are semi-public places and don't have a secure perimeter it will be impossible to defend a school with one cop whether he's armed with an ak 47 or a 9mm pistol.

 

[Pickman's model]

One would have thought it (his account) would be an easy thing to prove or disprove, just release the transcripts.

yeh. well that won't happen after yer man's boss dissed him so publickly

 

[agricola]

yeh. well that won't happen after yer man's boss dissed him so publickly

Indeed. They weren't even going to release that CCTV that his boss told everyone what it showed.

 

[8ball]

as long as schools are semi-public places and don't have a secure perimeter it will be impossible to defend a school with one cop whether he's armed with an ak 47 or a 9mm pistol.

Yep. In a few years it will be armed guards on the doors and assault rifles for every other teacher.
Good for business. And then if the rentacops and teachers leg it you can call them cowards and suggest arming the children.

I'm not arguing over the solutions, but just pointing out that parents have a right to feel aggrieved that the person they had been told was there to protect the kids, didn't (regardless of whether he was ordered to hang back or not).

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep. In a few years it will be armed guards on the doors and assault rifles for every other teacher.
Good for business. And then if the rentacops and teachers leg it you can call them cowards and suggest arming the children.

I'm not arguing over the solutions, but just pointing out that parents have a right to feel aggrieved that the person they had been told was there to protect the kids, didn't (regardless of whether he was ordered to hang back or not).

you should be arming the children, arming them with confidence and resilience so they don't turn into kill-crazy loons.

 

[scifisam]

Probably not a massive distraction for a lot of those parents whose kids died when they thought an armed cop
was protecting them.

Really? If I had a kid at a school of 3,000 pupils where anyone can walk in and out (American schools aren't like British schools in that respect) in a state where guns are freely available I wouldn't expect one cop to necessarily be able to do anything about it. I would be annoyed with the cop for not trying, even if he had a good explanation (because I wouldn't necessarily be thinking logically), but I wouldn't, ahead of time, have thought that the cop's existence made a school shooting impossible.

One of the major changes that would protect the kids is to not have the campuses be open so that anyone can wander in and out. Talk about armed cops on doors is ridiculous when currently the doors aren't even locked.

 

[agricola]

Yep. In a few years it will be armed guards on the doors and assault rifles for every other teacher.
Good for business. And then if the rentacops and teachers leg it you can call them cowards and suggest arming the children.

I'm not arguing over the solutions, but just pointing out that parents have a right to feel aggrieved that the person they had been told was there to protect the kids, didn't (regardless of whether he was ordered to hang back or not).

Well yes, though it should perhaps be pointed out that it is more than likely that parents have been told this bloke didn't go in / hid in order to prevent them feeling aggrieved at the person who has the responsibility for a department that had repeated contact with Cruz over the past two years, and the politicians who allowed Cruz to have access to assault rifles despite them being used by other people to butcher kids, family members, concert-goers, nightclub attendees, cops, people at the cinema etc etc.

The former Schools cop does have questions to answer, but his answers are likely to be more reasonable and more grounded in truth than his bosses' or politicians are.

 

[8ball]

. I would be annoyed with the cop for not trying, even if he had a good explanation (because I wouldn't necessarily be thinking logically), but I wouldn't, ahead of time, have thought that the cop's existence made a school shooting impossible.

That's what I meant - the not doing anything at all.
But I didn't know American schools were as open as you describe.

It doesn't seem to be the case universally in America, at least.

 

[8ball]

The former Schools cop does have questions to answer, but his answers are likely to be more reasonable and more grounded in truth than his bosses' or politicians are.

Yes, I expect more searching questions will follow. The students are certainly doing their part in this regard.

 

[YouSir]

Going along the lines of armed guards protecting schools - I wonder what a comparison between their ongoing training, preparedness and plans of action vs those of your average security team protecting a millionaire/celebrity/politician would look like. Trump and the rest love advocating more guns but you can guarantee that beyond the firearm itself they'd never invest in the sort of protection for schools that they take as a given for themselves, even when the threat is negligible.

 

[agricola]

In case people haven't seen it already, here is the full statement from his lawyer:

 

[likesfish]

The obvious solution is too make Ar15s difficult to get hold of.

They did that with machine guns
Result 2 deaths due to crime with legal machine guns* in 30 plus years. You can have a machine gun you just have to jump through the same loops

Tbf you’d have to add handguns with more than 7 round capacity or you’d just be changing the murder tool of choice .


* excludes the accidental death of an under 10 and an instructor due to recoil of a machine pistol

 

[scifisam]

That's what I meant - the not doing anything at all.
But I didn't know American schools were as open as you describe.

It doesn't seem to be the case universally in America, at least.

Not universally, but very widely. In places like Florida the schools are usually multiple buildings spread out over large grounds. Really the main thing that would help make these shootings less likely would be to stop people getting onto the campuses unless they had a good reason to be there, but I don't think that's always practical.

 

[8ball]

Not universally, but very widely. In places like Florida the schools are usually multiple buildings spread out over large grounds. Really the main thing that would help make these shootings less likely would be to stop people getting onto the campuses unless they had a good reason to be there, but I don't think that's always practical.

I might be wrong, but I thought most school shootings were by current students, so that's still only going to get you so far. But then unless keeping disturbed people from having military-grade weapons is on the table as an option, I think we're just going to be discussing the same things after the next big shooting.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Will be quite a storm if his version of events turns out to be true.

Won’t affect Trump, though, sadly. The truth has no bearing for him whatsoever.

Most rational people wrote Trump off as a pub bore a long time ago.

 

[editor]

Probably not a massive distraction for a lot of those parents whose kids died when they thought an armed cop
was protecting them.

Not sure any lone cop following training protocol would be able to protect students in a huge school from a lone, experienced shooter firing at will

I think it's quite disgusting the way they're trying to shift the discussion from the easy provision of hugely powerful weapons in American society to the supposed failings of a single cop. It's truly evil cunts like the NRA who want this to be the focus of the argument. Blame the lone non-superhero cop rather than take a close look at the carnage created by the weapons you peddle.

 

[8ball]

Not sure any lone cop following training protocol would be able to protect students in a huge school from a lone, experienced shooter firing at will.

{NRA} The answer is more guns.{/NRA}

 

[not-bono-ever]

Breaking down the 'good guy with a gun' theory

the discussions about more guns = less deaths are raging now . this is good. the NRA are being hoisted with their own petard. slowly

 

[8ball]

Breaking down the 'good guy with a gun' theory

the discussions about more guns = less deaths are raging now . this is good. the NRA are being hoisted with their own petard. slowly

Makes me wonder whether they openly cite "American Exceptionalism" as the reason why they can ignore the abundant evidence from every other country on the planet that they are doing things wrong.

 

[Dogsauce]

What a bizarre post...

Why would it make a difference until you've assessed the situation?
And why would it make a difference being a disgruntled parent as opposed to a student?

And what of the 'experienced shooter' bit? Should he have hung back until he was sure the shooter was incompetent?

Well that was sort of the point, in response to the 'you're not dealing with a hardened killer' line. It could well have been, so daft saying someone should rush in because it's likely to be an incompetent shooter.

I wonder if (in general, not specific to school shootings) terror attacks and fear of terror attacks might make someone more reticent about taking on a potential threat.

 

[scifisam]

I might be wrong, but I thought most school shootings were by current students, so that's still only going to get you so far. But then unless keeping disturbed people from having military-grade weapons is on the table as an option, I think we're just going to be discussing the same things after the next big shooting.

I think most of the very small shootings you find in the Wikipedia list (accidental woundings, one student shot as part of a dispute, that sort of thing) are by current students who had a right to be at the school, but the mass shootings tend to be former students, students on suspension or people who have no connection to the school. (The Wiki list includes universities, which isn't helpful).

 

[not-bono-ever]

I am just happy that is being discussed more openly now, a decade ago you would have been labelled a commie terrorist and lynched for questioning the need for guns

 

[Dogsauce]

Anyway, it seems completely mental that a society would rather have fortified schools with metal detectors and tooled-up teaching staff, police in tanks and other such measures at a huge financial cost, rather than restrict the availability of military grade weapons to civilians. This is freedom. What a way to organise society.

 

[agricola]

I am just happy that is being discussed more openly now, a decade ago you would have been labelled a commie terrorist and lynched for questioning the need for guns

Ten and twenty years ago people didn't use to use assault rifles to do these kind of attacks (the Virginia Tech shooter used handguns, Columbine involved a rifle, shotguns and handguns, Northern Illinois featured a shotgun and handguns), possibly because the relevant legislation banning them had only expired in 2004 and the guns hadn't percolated down through the system to a point where they were easily available. The possible affect of the ban on assault weapons with regards to deaths in spree killings is perhaps best illustrated by this graph (from the Wikipedia page on the AWB):

 

[souljacker]

Columbine involved a rifle, shotguns and handguns,

And a TEC-9 semi-automatic pistol