The American mass shooting thread

[Pickman's model]

You'll never see a total ban, but I can see a ban on high-capacity clips and assault weapons. Shotguns, handguns, and long rifles are here to stay. If you look at when gun deaths really went up, it was when the Reagan-era ban on the sale of assault weapons expired.

If you get a lucky president who has the house and senate on his side then yes. But the odds on that aren't I think great, the way things fall out, the way they're gerrymandering, is to stifle the sort of situation in which such decisive action might succeed

 

[ouirdeaux]

I've got to admire your optimism, if not your political nous, if you think a ban is at all possible in a country which refused meaningful background checks after sandy hook

Where did I say it was possible, in the present climate? But I'm curious to hear your ideas as to how it's apparently easier to iron out inequalities and dispense anger management upon the population.

 

[Ax^]

Canada does not seem to be able ban the the clips and assault weapons.

aye but thankfully you are canadian


without access to local news you get less gun happy if someone cuts you up in traffic

 

[Pickman's model]

Where did I say it was possible, in the present climate? But I'm curious to hear your ideas as to how it's apparently easier to iron out inequalities and dispense anger management upon the population.

In the post I replied to not so long ago. I see now that when you said 'it's certainly possible' you in fact meant it's impossible. Perhaps in future you could say what you mean first time round to prevent u-turns like this

 

[Ax^]

Second Amendment​

Second Amendment Explained


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

why would this cause problems

 

[spring-peeper]

aye but thankfully you are canadian


without access to local news you get less gun happy if someone cuts you up in traffic

I'm not sure what you mean local news would make us want to shoot someone in a road rage incident...

Most Canadians have access to local news.

 

[Ax^]

i mean you don't shoot someone of a road rage incident

it is a comment on the realities on the home of the free and the reality of living in next to a perma angry society


free markets really support the republican voters

 

[Nylock]

Then I am surprised you didn't notice mentioning the presidential election of 2024. Your posts seem motivated by the notion that gun control is going to swing things, that there's some er moral majority who want to see greater gun control and will vote in droves for candidates espousing such a position. But the broadly 50/50/50 nature of presidential elections not to mention the senate will stymie many meaningful gun control laws before they can get on the statute books. Maybe some measures will be taken at a state or city level. That's hardly going to affect the many millions of guns already in circulation, and I expect many proposals will be much heralded but do very little if anything in practice.

There's more than just the president getting elected in 2024 -hence my saying 2024 election and not 2024 presidential election. I was going to put more into this reply but your tendency to hyperbolise what I'm writing is pretty wearing tbf. Although I share your bleak assessment of how things will go at the national level, there might be room for some small optimism at the state level. That's all I'm saying.

 

[ouirdeaux]

In the post I replied to not so long ago. I see now that when you said 'it's certainly possible' you in fact meant it's impossible. Perhaps in future you could say what you mean first time round to prevent u-turns like this

Don't be an arsey disingenuous prick. You said bans wouldn't work, not that they couldn't be implemented in the current climate. You talked about fundamental changes to American society, which most would consider far further in the future than any restriction on guns.

 

[NoXion]

why would this cause problems

I find it funny that the bit about a "well regulated militia" hardly ever gets mentioned. Sounds to me like a firm constitutional basis for legally requiring gun owners to carry insurance, meet firearms handling standards, and prove that they can safely store their arms and ammunition when not in use.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

I find it funny that the bit about a "well regulated militia" hardly ever gets mentioned. Sounds to me like a firm constitutional basis for legally requiring gun owners to carry insurance, meet firearms handling standards, and prove that they can safely store their arms and ammunition when not in use.

well, yes, but,
from my cold dead hands!!!

 

[8ball]

You'll never see a total ban, but I can see a ban on high-capacity clips and assault weapons. Shotguns, handguns, and long rifles are here to stay. If you look at when gun deaths really went up, it was when the Reagan-era ban on the sale of assault weapons expired.

Since the definition of “assault weapons” is all over the place (and deliberately so), I guess they could just expand the definition to include anything that goes “bang”.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't be an arsey disingenuous prick. You said bans wouldn't work, not that they couldn't be implemented in the current climate. You talked about fundamental changes to American society, which most would consider far further in the future than any restriction on guns.

If you do look at what I said you'll note that I pointed out the mass shootings - and indeed the widespread use of guns which doesn't get reported - are a symptom of a larger problem, not a condition in themselves. As we all know, people have to realise they have a problem before they begin to address it but a difficulty here is that they haven't yet realises the problem that needs addressing. Sure, in the short term gun control measures might cut the number of shootings. But so many guns are in circulation, and legally held weapons which would have circumvented the sort of proposals made for eg background checks, that removing the gun from American society looked at simply as a logistical issue would be very difficult.

And that's before you look at ways this might legally be done without riding a coach and horses through the second amendment, or persuading gun owners of its necessity.

The difficulty with making the USA a more equal society seems to me to rest more with the perception that more equality is communism rather than being essential to the pursuit of happiness. The American dream is based on shitting on other people, it's scarface rather than a wonderful life. If people pursue wealth with every atom of their being, seeing money as the measure of success, you're clearly going to have a society in which most people might be accounted failures. Add in a system which robs for 99% to reward the 1% and you're asking for trouble. Even though starting the process of resetting the balance towards the 99% would be easy enough to do through state and national legislation there's a lot of baggage to unpack and discard first.

 

[ouirdeaux]

There's something in that. But I still think the odds of getting legislation passed that restricts the availability of guns is more likely in the future -- if not the immediate future -- than a fundamental change in society.

Also, I think it's too simplistic to say that the American dream is based on being Scarface, hence guns. If it were suddenly as easy to get a gun in the UK (or loads of other countries) as it is in some parts of the US, don't you think the number of people being killed by guns would rise sharply?

 

[Pickman's model]

There's something in that. But I still think the odds of getting legislation passed that restricts the availability of guns is more likely in the future -- if not the immediate future -- than a fundamental change in society.

Also, I think it's too simplistic to say that the American dream is based on being Scarface, hence guns. If it were suddenly as easy to get a gun in the UK (or loads of other countries) as it is in some parts of the US, don't you think the number of people being killed by guns would rise sharply?

what i actually said was the american dream is more scarface than it's a wonderful life. i said nothing about the american dream being based on scarface, that's your invention. i won't answer questions based on inventions attributed to me

 

[ouirdeaux]

OK, it's not based on Scarface. Meanwhile, we have the UK, with its own set of weird and wonderful traditions, but with a similar end result that there are a lot of people might be accounted failures. If it were as easy for these people, and indeed anyone else who might not be accounted a failure but might just be in a bad mood, to get hold of guns as it is in the US, would you not expect the number of people killed by guns to go up considerably?

Quibbling over the exact relationship of US society to depictions in films seems an odd way to avoid answering the question.

 

[Pickman's model]

OK, it's not based on Scarface. Meanwhile, we have the UK, with its own set of weird and wonderful traditions, but with a similar end result that there are a lot of people might be accounted failures. If it were as easy for these people, and indeed anyone else who might not be accounted a failure but might just be in a bad mood, to get hold of guns as it is in the US, would you not expect the number of people killed by guns to go up considerably?

Quibbling over the exact relationship of US society to depictions in films seems an odd way to avoid answering the question.

i wasn't quibbling over the relationship of us to society to depiction in films, it was a shorthand analogy. there is no british dream to compare to the american one, so your question's really founded on sand.

 

[ouirdeaux]

there is no british dream to compare to the american one, so your question's really founded on sand.

You seem to have missed the point -- possibly deliberately, as I find it hard to believe you don't understand what the argument is.

You appear to believe that the high gun death rate in the US owes more to the nature of the American dream than the availability of guns.

I do not think this is the case, or at least not a significant part of the case, because I believe that the UK, and lots of other countries, would have similar statistics if guns were as easy to obtain. I asked you if you thought that these countries' lack of a comparable labelled concept of a national dream would mean that they would not have similar statistics.

For whatever reason you're dancing about the question. I didn't have you down as a troll.

 

[Pickman's model]

You seem to have missed the point -- possibly deliberately, as I find it hard to believe you don't understand what the argument is.

You appear to believe that the high gun death rate in the US owes more to the nature of the American dream than the availability of guns.

I do not think this is the case, or at least not a significant part of the case, because I believe that the UK and lots of other countries would have similar statistics if guns were as easy to obtain. I asked you if you thought that these countries' lack of a comparable labelled concept of a national dream would mean that these countries would not have similar statistics.

For whatever reason you're dancing about the question. I didn't have you down as a troll.

the problem is i am reacting to what you have said and you have reacted to what you think i've said <e2a> as we have seen you can be flagrantly wrong in understanding what i've said. no, i don't think the number of gun deaths would rise considerably if we returned to the status quo before michael ryan. and that's the most that could possibly be on the cards here in terms of the liberalisation of gun laws. i think even that isn't really on the cards. in any case there have been very few mass shootings in the uk (outside the six counties) over the hundred years since gun laws were tightened up in 1921. this list of massacres in the uk List of massacres in Great Britain - Wikipedia (which i don't think is exhaustive) shows far more people have died in bombings than in mass shootings.


(source: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7654/CBP-7654.pdf, p. 7)
as you can see, post-hungerford and dunblane deaths involving firearms aren't a million miles away from where they were before - and several years were rather higher than the pre-1996/1987 figures. given the societal opposition to guns in the uk i don't imagine it would be really socially acceptable to obtain firearms in any great liberalisation as you propose. and so i am not persuaded, looking at the historical data when guns were much easier to obtain legally than they are now, that there would be the considerable increase you assert

 

[Ax^]

always thought the English dream were something about cricket , cups of tea and keep the French in their place

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Don't ring the wrong doorbell by accident!

Ralph Yarl: Black teen shot by homeowner after ringing wrong doorbell Ralph Yarl: Black teen shot by homeowner after ringing wrong doorbell

I used to live in that county in Missouri. It was the most openly racist place I've ever lived.

 

[gentlegreen]

look pretty ok from some street i've seen

scary as its to normal like most american streets

On Street View the area looks like a completely ordinary North American neighbourhood

Streetview didn't even get in there - just some photos of the swimming pool.
Surrounded by golf courses...
The 84 yr old shooter looks deranged.

 

[gentlegreen]

And another one ...
Shot dead this time...

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/woman-shot-wrong-driveway-upstate-new-york/index.html

 

[8ball]

Weird kind of siege mentality.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Weird kind of siege mentality.

I'm thinking this elderly man listened to years of Fox News and their litany of "be afraid, be very afraid" and took it to heart.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

I'm thinking this elderly man listened to years of Fox News and their litany of "be afraid, be very afraid" and took it to heart.

he's pleaded "not guilty" at his first court appearance.
Probably thinks he is right too

 

[krtek a houby]

And over in Texas

Man arrested in shooting of two Texas cheerleaders after one mistakenly got into the wrong car

One of the victims was critically injured in the shooting that unfolded early Tuesday outside an H-E-B supermarket in Elgin, Texas, police said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[editor]

And over in Texas

Man arrested in shooting of two Texas cheerleaders after one mistakenly got into the wrong car

One of the victims was critically injured in the shooting that unfolded early Tuesday outside an H-E-B supermarket in Elgin, Texas, police said.

www.nbcnews.com

It's beyond fucked up. Young boy rings the wrong doorbell by accident. Gets shot by some gun toting twat. Young girl gets in the wrong car by accident. Gets shot by some gun toting twat.

A man has been arrested after two Texas cheerleaders were shot, one critically, after one of them mistakenly got into the wrong car, according to police and the owner of the gym where they trained.

Officers in Elgin, about 25 miles northeast of Austin, responded to reports of shots fired outside an H-E-B supermarket around 12:15 a.m. local time (1:15 a.m. ET) Tuesday, the Elgin Police Department said in a news release.


"Information suggests that an altercation occurred in the parking lot of H-E-B, and multiple shots were fired into a vehicle," police said. Two of the car's occupants were struck by gunfire, with one victim sustaining serious injuries and transported by helicopter to a hospital, where they were listed in critical condition, police said.

The suspect, Pedro Tello Rodriguez Jr., 25, has been charged with deadly conduct, a third-degree felony, police said

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

he's pleaded "not guilty" at his first court appearance.
Probably thinks he is right too

That's pretty standard. If you plead guilty, they rack it to you. If you plead not guilty, it leaves some room to negotiate a plea deal.

 

[spring-peeper]

It's beyond fucked up. Young boy rings the wrong doorbell by accident. Gets shot by some gun toting twat. Young girl gets in the wrong car by accident. Gets shot by some gun toting twat.

You forgot the woman how got shot for turning around in a driveway

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/woman-shot-wrong-driveway-upstate-new-york/index.html

A 20-year-old woman was shot and killed Saturday after she and three others accidentally turned into the wrong driveway while looking for a friend’s house in rural upstate New York, authorities said.

The woman, identified as Kaylin Gillis, was a passenger in a vehicle when a man, 65-year-old Kevin Monahan, fired two shots from his front porch, Washington County Sheriff Jeffrey Murphy said in a news conference Monday.

Blake Walsh, Gillis’ boyfriend, said he was driving the car the night they drove up the wrong driveway. He told NBC Tuesday in a phone interview that he, his late girlfriend, and two friends were looking for a party. Four friends were traveling in another vehicle and also went up the wrong driveway.
“We thought we were at the right address,” Walsh told NBC. “We didn’t have any cell service to figure it out. As soon as we figured out that we were at the wrong location, we started to leave, and that’s when everything happened.”

“My friend said, ‘They’re shooting — go!’ I tried to step on the gas as fast as I could, and that’s when the fatal shot (that struck Gillis) came through,” Walsh told NBC.

“I want to believe it was instant. I’m hoping it was. I’m praying it was,” he said.

The sheriff said the shooting happened in “a very rural area with dirt roads” and poor cell service.

“It’s a very rural area with dirt roads. It’s easy to get lost. They drove up this driveway for a very short time, realized their mistake and were leaving, when Mr. Monahan came out and fired two shots,” the sheriff said.