The American mass shooting thread

[8ball]

just banning kids from school building would be an easier fix

cannot kill kids if they are not in the school

,

We tried that. I haven't seen the published results but I expect it was effective.

 

[Pickman's model]

My understanding is that some of the parents on the scene wanted to do exactly this. (Maybe they were themselves armed - quite possibly, this being Texas.)

Of course none of us can know how we will react to a particular situation until we are there. But it's not a good look to be a trained, armed group who are not only not doing anything but are stopping others who are not trained from doing anything.

yeh we've perhaps been through this before, that there are two police forces (at least) in uvalde - the first a six-strong police district force, who have received some training in dealing with an active shooter situation, the second a force with forty officers on the books who it seems have not been trained in dealing with an active shooter situation. the commander of the first was in charge on the day.

Thing is, this is supposed to be the whole point of training - to give you a better chance of not fucking it right up.

While I do partially agree with you here, I also think those parents and everyone else who lives in that town are entitled to ask of their trained police 'what's the fucking point of you?' Ignoring questions of individuals, collectively they fucked it right up despite their training.

which force do you mean, the pd untrained in this situation or the ucisd cops who have been trained (to a degree) and were in charge?

 

[killer b]

Thing is, this is supposed to be the whole point of training - to give you a better chance of not fucking it right up.

While I do partially agree with you here, I also think those parents and everyone else who lives in that town are entitled to ask of their trained police 'what's the fucking point of you?' Ignoring questions of individuals, collectively they fucked it right up despite their training.

Are your standard local cops given the kind of training necessary to deal with an attack by someone using battlefield weapons? I doubt it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Keep your eye on that kid...

You've always got to watch out for the ones who are smarter than the people who run the school.

 

[SpookyFrank]

We tried that. I haven't seen the published results but I expect it was effective.

April 2020 was the first month without a school shooting in the US for about six years IIRC.

 

[A380]

You've always got to watch out for the ones who are smarter than the people who run the school.

Isn't that all of them?

 

[8ball]

Are your standard local cops given the kind of training necessary to deal with an attack by someone using battlefield weapons? I doubt it.

Any weapon can be a battlefield weapon.

edit: that was overly pedantic tbf

 

[8ball]

April 2020 was the first month without a school shooting in the US for about six years IIRC.

That's good enough for me.
It's better than any idea Tucker Carlson is coming out with.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Any weapon can be a battlefield weapon.

Fancy spotting him at even 50 yards?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Fancy spotting him at even 50 yards?

In the humanities corridor? Yeah, no problem.

 

[Duncan2]

Are your standard local cops given the kind of training necessary to deal with an attack by someone using battlefield weapons? I doubt it.

Guess the point is they are likely to have a better chance than the infants?

 

[killer b]

Guess the point is they are likely to have a better chance than the infants?

Sure. So what though? How does them having a better chance than the kids being slaughtered make their knees any less likely to buckle and their nerves less likely to fail?

I don't dispute that the police response to this appears to have been a total disaster - but IMO it seems likely that a significant part of the reason for such a disastrous response is that a civilian police force is simply not psychologically equipped to deal with people armed with this kind of weaponry.

 

[killer b]

People - even cops - who go up against psychopaths with machine guns are rightly lauded as heroes - surely the flipside of that is that not everyone has it in them to be a hero

 

[SpookyFrank]

 

[Ax^]

well at least we all not be distracted from the real problem of America and it serious gun problem

 

[Ax^]

cops to redeem themselves in public shot a unarmed pregnant women 5 times 3 days ago

 

[Duncan2]

Sure. So what though? How does them having a better chance than the kids being slaughtered make their knees any less likely to buckle and their nerves less likely to fail?

I don't dispute that the police response to this appears to have been a total disaster - but IMO it seems likely that a significant part of the reason for such a disastrous response is that a civilian police force is simply not psychologically equipped to deal with people armed with this kind of weaponry.

The parents were psychologically equipped alright and the police appear to have held them back with inter alia tasers even wrestling at least one individual to the ground.I am doubtless just another naive civilian but I am reminded of the bloke with the Narwhal tusk on London Bridge.Can't imagine he spent much time on a risk assessment before wading in-on his own time.

 

[killer b]

I guess the answer is to supply every school in america with a narwhal tusk.

 

[Ax^]

and ban the education of children


without the problem that is school and education we have none of this problem

 

[Duncan2]

It worked on London Bridge.The police were worse than useless and i really don't see any point in trying to defend them.
ETA meant the tusk did.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It worked on London Bridge.The police were worse than useless and i really don't see any point in trying to defend them.

This is the bottom line here. If the police hadn't been there, the parents would have stormed the place. Maybe that would have worked out badly as well, but there's a chance it would have saved lives.

Sometimes just one person taking decisive action and disregarding their own safety is all it takes. It reminds me of the 911 bombings and the plane that didn't crash into a building because passengers stepped in. On the other flights, passengers didn't step in. Sometimes people can collectively freeze, as these coppers did.

 

[emanymton]

This is the bottom line here. If the police hadn't been there, the parents would have stormed the place. Maybe that would have worked out badly as well, but there's a chance it would have saved lives.

Sometimes just one person taking decisive action and disregarding their own safety is all it takes. It reminds me of the 911 bombings and the plane that didn't crash into a building because passengers stepped in. On the other flights, passengers didn't step in. Sometimes people can collectively freeze, as these coppers did.

If I remember right that only happened because they learnt about what had happened to the other 2 planes. Not because people on some planes froze while one's on another didn't.

 

[8ball]

If I remember right that only happened because they learnt about what had happened to the other 2 planes. Not because people on some planes froze while one's on another didn't.

Up to then, the hijacking script was very much to “sit tight”. It wasn’t a simple case of collectively freezing iirc.

 

[likesfish]

If you've not read that "manual" yet, I urge you to do so.

Did you ever find yourself going up against psychopathic killers firing automatic weapons at you in your time in the army?

Yes but enough about my platoon

 

[SpookyFrank]

no, it isn't.

let's look at what cops in the uk swear:

View attachment 324868
nothing there about putting yourself in harm's way

To the best of my power suggests trying at least a little bit.

 

[petee]

just banning kids from school building would be an easier fix

cannot kill kids if they are not in the school

on a side note, US rightwingers are aiming for the end of public schooling too.

 

[Nylock]

Tbf they're aiming for pretty much the end of anything provided by local, state or federal government...

 

[NoXion]

Tbf they're aiming for pretty much the end of anything provided by local, state or federal government...

It's like they want the shittest possible version of anarchy. You know, the right wing kind that rapidly dissolves into feudalism.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Tbf they're aiming for pretty much the end of anything provided by local, state or federal government...

There's been several experiments in Libertarian paradise towns and they all failed:

The Short, Unhappy Life of a Libertarian Paradise

The residents of Colorado Springs undertook a radical experiment in lean government. Here’s what they got.

www.politico.com

The Rise and Fall of the 'Freest Little City in Texas'

How a libertarian experiment in city government fell apart over taxes, debt and some very angry people.

www.texasobserver.org

How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears

Seriously, this happened. You should absolutely read about it.

www.vox.com

One of the towns is unironically named "Grafton."

 

[8ball]

It's like they want the shittest possible version of anarchy. You know, the right wing kind that rapidly dissolves into feudalism.

Right-wing “libertarianism” only takes the forms of feudalism or fascism.