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The American mass shooting thread

there are two police forces. the one the school district's, composed of six officers, who recently did undergo the training. their commander was lead on the day. the other force, the town's police department, composed of forty officers, who don't appear to have had the training. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/27/uvalde-police-school-chief/

FWIW this training that the media are focusing on was scheduled to last "a minimum of eight hours" (with the implication that it is one day's training).

In terms of preparing people to respond to and resolve an incident where a very determined individual, armed with serious weaponry, is focused on murdering kids it doesn't sound anywhere near sufficient. It sounds much more like box-ticking.
 
You don't need a, lot of training to go towards the sound of gunshots.
Most police cars in the US have a shot gun and or an Ar15.
Nobody expects you to do what that sas bloke in kenya did.
But you could at least Try.
 
You don't need a, lot of training to go towards the sound of gunshots.
Most police cars in the US have a shot gun and or an Ar15.
Nobody expects you to do what that sas bloke in kenya did.
But you could at least Try.

I had no idea about the Ar’s in the cars, though I knew there were sometimes shotguns.

That should be enough to keep the fucker busy for a bit at least.
 
I was thinking about the economics of school security and found this article quite interesting.

Texas issues grants for security totalling $100m every two years, and there's been a one-off grant totalling the same recently (I've skim read and may get details wrong). Thing is that equates to $69k for Uvalde CISD, which covers a student body of 4,100 enrolled over 9/10 schools. The article reckons a full camera setup alone comes in at around $20k, with secure lobbies at $345k for two. Before you even start on staffing; training costs, licensing costs... Unwillingness of badly paid, time-constrained teachers at a fucking elementary school to double up as armed security. I mean fuck.

And of course impact on student body when you're training kids how to avoid getting shot. When doors are locked and movements tightly monitored... keep windows small to avoid spend on bullet resistant glass. Armed security watching over students of colour. It's just deeply fucked up.

Look up Robb school on google maps. Its 'security fencing' looks little higher than 5ft or so. There's this expectation that schools be hardened, but - as with so many things in the US - the reality seems to be something else entirely. A handful of show schools, and thousands of others that just require you to hop a fence. The situation is incurable without major social and political change. And that looks less likely than ever.


While I understand the present necessity to lock doors, limit access, train kids and teachers - not to mention cops ffs - to deal with shooters, it all smacks of giving women rape alarms, those weird anti-rape penis traps women were supposed to wear on a night out, telling women they need to watch how they dress, act, walk etc.

It’s all after the fact and puts the onus onto the victoms, once again distracting from the main issue, which is guns in the hands of maniacs.

The problem isn’t the victim, the problem is the perpetrator. Why does the responsibility lie with the victim?
Fucked up.
 
I qualified for the Army Cadets shooting team while I was attending. It was great and I had a lot of fun firing live rounds, albeit highly supervised. I think the adult instructors did a very good job of impressing the dangers of even blank ammunition upon us unruly kids.

The chap who taught me to shoot a shotgun was an ex-WWII Commando.

Lesson one, gun discipline, lesson two, any deviation from lesson one would mean I never fired his shotgun again. Heard and understood.
 
While I understand the present necessity to lock doors, limit access, train kids and teachers - not to mention cops ffs - to deal with shooters, it all smacks of giving women rape alarms, those weird anti-rape penis traps women were supposed to wear on a night out, telling women they need to watch how they dress, act, walk etc.

It’s all after the fact and puts the onus onto the victoms, once again distracting from the main issue, which is guns in the hands of maniacs.

The problem isn’t the victim, the problem is the perpetrator. Why does the responsibility lie with the victim?
Fucked up.
Indeed.
 
You don't need a, lot of training to go towards the sound of gunshots.
Most police cars in the US have a shot gun and or an Ar15.
Nobody expects you to do what that sas bloke in kenya did.
But you could at least Try.
Thats not quite all there is too it TBF...
 
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FWIW this training that the media are focusing on was scheduled to last "a minimum of eight hours" (with the implication that it is one day's training).

In terms of preparing people to respond to and resolve an incident where a very determined individual, armed with serious weaponry, is focused on murdering kids it doesn't sound anywhere near sufficient. It sounds much more like box-ticking.
Could be at least a whole days PowerPoint.... Sounds almost like they have some kind of inspection requirement to train active shooter response and this is the minimum to get the tick in the box.

Good job the UK public sector doesn't work like that....
 


Stupid because it doesn’t actually stop rape. It only works if the woman is actually being raped.
Compare with teachers stopping an active shooter by actively shooting the shooter who has entered the classroom to shoot the children, who will witness the teacher shooting the shooter.

Not sure I'm following you.
Children witnessing a school shooter being shot seems a much better outcome than them being shot by the school shooter.
 
Not sure I'm following you.
Children witnessing a school shooter being shot seems a much better outcome than them being shot by the school shooter.

Is it “much better” though? It’s still extremely traumatic. It would possibly save * lives but how is it a solution to the problem.


Stopping the rapist by interrupting the rape in progress is still going to to be utterly traumatic for the victim. Who is encouraged to wear this medieval device to stop the rape, rather than anyone addressing the issue of, y’’know, maybe making men responsible for not raping women in the first place.

Shooting a person who has entered a classroom with the intention of shooting the children, means the children will witness their teacher pull out a gun and shoot the shooter in order to interrupt the process of shooting them, but it’s still going to be really fucking traumatising for the children. And this is the suggested answer to the problem, rather than, y’know, maybe somehow stopping maniacs from arming themselves to the teeth with war weapons in the first place.


eta
* However, if teachers are armed, it’s a safe bet that future school shooters will take that into consideration and work to take out the teacher as quickly as possible, thus rendering the children even more vulnerable.


It’s an idiotic idea.
 
Yes.

But you’re missing my point.

Stopping the rapist by interrupting the rape in progress is still going to to be utterly traumatic for the victim. Who is encouraged to wear this medieval device to stop the rape, rather than anyone addressing the issue of, y’’know, maybe making men responsible for not raping women in the first place.

I believe it's illegal in many quarters these days.

Regardless, yes, arming teachers isn't the ideal - it's the last line of defence.
Hence the need to also arm the administrators, janitors, cleaners and children.
 
I believe it's illegal in many quarters these days.

Regardless, yes, arming teachers isn't the ideal - it's the last line of defence.
Hence the need to also arm the administrators, janitors, cleaners and children.

You're being disingenuous. You know that rape isn’t stopped by being illegal, any more than gun crime is. Rape arises from the patriarchy sexism, misogyny etc. Laws don’t stop it. Getting men to wake the fuck up and sort their shit out is where the work needs to be done,


Arming janitors. really?

Are you bored or something?
 
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Getting men to wake the fuck up and sort their shirt out is where the work needs to be done

I wasn't down with people who wanted to make the clothing of victims relevant to the crime and I don't think it works this way round either.
 
I believe it's illegal in many quarters these days.

'Rape has effectively been decriminalised as a result of a collapse in prosecutions that has allowed many offenders to escape justice, according to the victims’ commissioner for England and Wales.

In her first annual report since taking up the role, Dame Vera Baird QC says there has been a “catastrophic” decline in rape prosecutions, with no measures put in place to reverse it.

Endorsing criticisms raised by campaigners against sexual violence, Baird writes: “In effect, what we are witnessing is the decriminalisation of rape. In doing so, we are failing to give justice to thousands of complainants.'

 
'Rape has effectively been decriminalised as a result of a collapse in prosecutions that has allowed many offenders to escape justice, according to the victims’ commissioner for England and Wales.

In her first annual report since taking up the role, Dame Vera Baird QC says there has been a “catastrophic” decline in rape prosecutions, with no measures put in place to reverse it.

Endorsing criticisms raised by campaigners against sexual violence, Baird writes: “In effect, what we are witnessing is the decriminalisation of rape. In doing so, we are failing to give justice to thousands of complainants.'


I'm firmly on the "keep it properly" illegal side of the line.
 
Really? Make light of a serious post by using a typo?

I'm really not going to take "maybe making men responsible for not raping women in the first place?" as a serious post.

I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment. I think it's a good sentiment. Up there with "murder is bad".
I'd make men responsible for not killing teachers and schoolchildren too.
 
I'm really not going to take "maybe making men responsible for not raping women in the first place?" as a serious post.

I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment. I think it's a good sentiment. Up there with "murder is bad".
I'd make men responsible for not killing teachers and schoolchildren too.

You’re not usually this obtuse.

That was the point I was making.

It‘s so fucking obvious that it’s almost redundant.

You asked what an anti rape device was, rather than googling for it, so I posted the wiki link, and then a Captain Obvious explanation of what I was getting at.
 
The NRA’s ‘Shadow Convention’ Reveals the Group’s True Purpose

On the third floor of Houston’s massive convention center, far above the noise and rabble of the gun show at the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting, a luxury hospitality suite was closed to normal NRA members. It was reserved instead for the gun lobby’s biggest donors, who belong to its “Ring of Freedom.” Here, grandees could escape from the masses, sink into plush leather couches, belly up to the refreshment tables, and marvel at a surreal pair of massive taxidermy installations, including one of a grizzly bear felling a moose.

The NRA loves to bash “the elites” — in Hollywood and the media — whom they blame for whipping the nation into what they describe as gun-grabbing hysteria after a mass shooting like the one that left 19 elementary school children dead in Uvalde, Texas. The organization holds itself out as a stalwart defender of the everyman against “the world’s most powerful, deceitful and ruthless opponents,” as NRA honcho Wayne LaPierre put it in a Saturday address to NRA members.

But at its annual meeting in Houston, the NRA hosted a high-end shadow convention for its own elite members and backers — many of them executives of gun manufacturers and sellers. These “Ring of Freedom” events underscore how the NRA has transformed itself from a pro-second amendment organization, focused on the liberty interests of its members, into a front group for gun industry itself.

The NRA today is best understood as a stalwart defender of gun commerce. The NRA doesn’t sell weapons, but it sells the fear that sells the guns — always warning its members against a rising tide of violence, from which they must be prepared to defend themselves with deadly force. Meanwhile, its lobbyist go to the mat in Washington and state capitals across the country to block restrictions on the kinds of weapons that dealers can sell, and to open up new markets — including by passing conceal-carry laws, so that Americans gun consumers don’t just purchase a gun for the home, but plunk down on another to take to town. When school massacres occur, the NRA predictably pushes to expand guns into another new market — the classroom — a move that could turn the nation’s more than 3 million teachers into gun buyers.

The mass of NRA members at the annual convention are motley crew. They dress in camo shorts and “Let’s Go Brandon” hats. Some sport bushy gray beards, tattoos, and T-shirts with the sleeves torn off. The more fashionable are outfitted in trim fitting tactical gear, but most would not look out of place at a NASCAR rally. Most have little interest in the political meetings and training sessions on the top floors of the convention hall. They’ve come to check out massive gun show that the NRA’s commercial partners have assembled on in the convention showroom on the first floor.

But if you look closely, you’ll also identify a rarefied group of NRA convention gowers who dress like they’re ready to take in the Kentucky Derby, decked out in tailored jackets and southern cocktail finery.

The NRA welcomes such well-heeled members into its Ring of Freedom if they pony up at least a thousand dollars a year. These individuals get to rub elbows with the gun lobby’s mega-donors, who give more than $1 million lifetime, and are inaugurated into the “Golden Ring of Freedom.” These folks, mainly firearm industry CEOs, are bestowed gold blazers, which mark them in the convention hall as VVIPs.

The annual meeting in Houston featured a slate of private events for these grandees that was not publicized to rank-and-file NRA members. The Ring of Freedom elites were invited to arrive a day early, stay in a special bank of rooms at the luxury Marriott Marquis — replete with a rooftop “lazy river” pool in the shape of the state of Texas and its own private “sky bridge” walkway crossing to the convention center, neatly avoiding the crowds of protesters on the sidewalks below.

A schedule obtained by Rolling Stone indicates these NRA bigwigs began to celebrate, on Thursday, just two days after the Uvalde massacre, with a morning clay pigeon shoot, and an “NRA Ring of Freedom Corporate Partners’ Luncheon.” (The attendees weren’t disclosed but the NRA lists among its “Top Ten Industry Allies” the likes of Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Taurus, and Glock.)

Friday morning in the George Bush Grand Ballroom of the convention center, the NRA hosted its Ring of Freedom Celebration Breakfast. A bouncer stood at the door to keep average members at bay, but from the door NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre could be seen on a large screen, fetting Larry and Brenda Potterfield, founders of Midway USA, an online gun shop that was the lead sponsor of the convention. He bestowed on them the “NRA Defender of Freedom” award.

At noon, there was the Annual Women’s Leadership Forum Luncheon, attended by NRA members who looked like they were on their way to a high end wedding reception, held at a roped-off room of the Marquis.

Amid the Friday night speeches, when even Donald Trump and LaPierre performed rituals of mourning for the children of Uvalde, the Potterfields — Larry in his gold blazer — were trotted out on stage to underscore the power of cash at the NRA. They held an enormous check for $21 million, representing the sum of donations to the NRA from the dealer’s long-running “round up” program, which lets buyers send some pocket change from every purchase to the rifle association.

That night, in the ballroom of the nearby Hilton, the NRA staged a dinner and auction to benefit its lobbying arm, NRA-ILA. Attendees, dressed to the nines — including one woman who wore boots that appeared to be fashioned of actual zebra skin — and swigged Perrier as they picked up their wristbands for a closed-door event billed as featuring “Second Amendment leaders, industry executives and special guests,” to bid on auction finery including “engraved firearms, fine art, hunts and one-of-a-kind items.”


Let's not forget that these folks are also partially responsible for the state of things in the US. They were literally sipping cocktails, dressed in zebra skin boots, and bidding on fine art, before the bodies were in the ground yet.
 
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You’re not usually this obtuse.

That was the point I was making.

It‘s so fucking obvious that it’s almost redundant.

You asked what an anti rape device was, rather than googling for it, so I posted the wiki link, and then a Captain Obvious explanation of what I was getting at.

I'd Googled it myself. Wondered whether you were talking about the same thing.
"Those weird anti-rape devices women were supposed to wear on a night out" didn't make me expect some nutty invention that was apparently proposed in South Africa a couple of decades back, but yes, in the context of that I see where you're coming from.

Not sure how analogous it is to the school shooting case in that making men responsible for not killing kids in schools isn't an obvious or obviously effective thing.

Many people have suggested having fewer guns around as a first step.

Yeah, I know, it's not gonna happen. :(

But agree that there have been some horrible and (to a non-American) frankly puzzling victim-blaming (or very much like it) things going on.

Sorry, story - I'm being crabby. Nicotine withdrawal.
 
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