The 2024 UK General Election - news, speculation and updates

[littlebabyjesus]

Upper middle classes don't generally put their hands in their pockets for the good of the system beyond the direct interest of their own sprogs, if a school is in trouble they just go for another one.

Which is why you need a proper comprehensive school system. Mixed systems with some comps, some selective (by whatever means) don't work.

 

[kabbes]

So what are the actual arguments for and against?

Presumably the argument against imposing VAT is that it will (arguably) raise fees to the point where more kids are pushed into state funded education at further cost of the taxpayer, and therefore offering VAT free may be in the state's interest, and could be considered a rebate of sorts? And furthermore why should schools get to claim 'registered charity' status when they are basically businesses.

And presumably the argument for imposing VAT is that until now, its effectively offering a privilege to the already privileged, and that tax revenue could be put to better use in the state sector.

TBH I'm not really sure I buy either argument because it assumes all people who send their kids to private schools are wealthy enough to be able to swallow an extra 20% on top of the fees. Of course many of them are, but it seems arbitrary to just assume nobody is already struggling with the costs. Then there’s special needs schools and etc.

But then again 20% VAT is arbitrary in itself. Why not reframe it with a rebate and acknowledge that U.K. based parents not sending their kids to state schools are already saving the taxpayer so why shouldn’t they get a rebate?

But then also, why should people with kids get a rebate when we already have too many people and I, with no kids, get no rebate for not having kids and saving the taxpayer and the environment that way.

The whole thing just seems a bit suss. Why not means test it? Like student fees were when they were first introduced (and when paid no tuition fees). Means testing surely creates a fairer playing field for all, no?

See two posts above yours. It’s not 20% and the additional tax raised is much greater than the marginal cost of funding more places.

 

[kabbes]

Well, yeah, education is about a lot more than passing exams. You don't need schools to pass exams (as some Tory edtech chums are trying to cash in on). But it's the production of attitudes, dispositions, tastes and so on.

Confidence, connections, familiarity and so on.

To get all Bourdieusian the cultural and social capital acquired is more important than the paper credentials that serve as proxies for educational capital.

Well, quite. To turn intellectual capital into financial capital, you need social capital. And for that, you need cultural capital. No point knowing things if you can’t get a job, can’t get promoted, can’t persuade banks to lend you money, can’t get investors to listen to your ideas, can’t get customers to take your phone calls…

Since we’re on Bourdieu, there is some interesting stuff about class and habitus in terms of how the future is metaphorically represented. It’s to do with working class kids representing the future as threat whereas middle-class kids represent the future as opportunity. These representations are how we understand our reality and they lead to differences in how we deal with that reality. How we react to events, how we interrelate to people — the result is a self-fulfilling prophesy. And schools are a big part of that habitus.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And such a punchable tory cunt face as well.

I honestly saw that guy and though he must be AI-generated. There can't possibly be a person that tory-looking in real life.

 

[gosub]

So what?

That's > monetary investment

Only 12 percent of private school kids are boarders.

+ your service (military & foriegn) kids also more likely to be amongst boarders, and in my experience those on charitable bursaries.

I don't know, but I'd guess Sanak wasn't doing a daily intercity school run either...especially as he got Headboy...even if that meant ..knew he was in running so stopped being dayboy.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Classes are smaller. The teachers vary enormously. Probably more so than in the State sector.

We've had teachers start here after a few years teaching in private school and they've always crashed and burned.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I think it's really misleading to conflate wealth and parental engagement in school/education.

Parents of any social class can be really engaged.

Equally, parents of any social class can be utterly disengaged.

Nothing to do with money in either direction.

People with money can actually do something about it though or make politicians listen to them in a way poorer parents can’t

 

[Wilf]

First we got BBC Newnight's GB News Makeover - now it's the Telegraph apeing the Daily Star!

To be honest, I'm hearing it in a Chris Morris voice.

 

[Wilf]

There’s a lot of absolute bollocks being spoken about the economics of this VAT on school fees by people who are obviously not used to dealing with accounting and finance. For a start, if schools are VAT rateable then they can also reclaim VAT on their spend. It’s estimated that this offsets about 8% out of the 20%, so even if you just treat it as a straightforward need to fund the additional costs, fees should go up by 12% not 20%. By comparison, private schools have already put their fees up by way more than 12% over recent years. Second, you might have to fund additional state school places if some parents can’t afford that 12%, but even in conservative estimates, the additional tax revenue is many many times greater than the cost of those marginal places, particularly since birth rates are so low, meaning that schools will start to gain capacity. I’ve seen other fallacies trumpeted too but I CBA, because those two things alone are quite enough.

You can prove anything with facts and hatred of the private sector.

 

[_Russ_]

I think it's really misleading to conflate wealth and parental engagement in school/education.

Parents of any social class can be really engaged.

Equally, parents of any social class can be utterly disengaged.

Nothing to do with money in either direction.

Yea tbh Parental engagement in most things seems lacking in pretty much all areas of society these days, increasingly it seems the care, safety and nurturing of their children is someone elses reponsibility while they either go to work or catch up on their social meeja feeds

 

[Wilf]

Neither really. If it raises a bit of revenue great, but all it'll do is bottom slice the private sector marginally. A few - already struggling - schools at the bottom end of the hierarchy might close. A few m/c families might switch to State, but elite reproduction will be utterly untouched.

Probably true but, in a country with massive levels of child poverty and families reliant on foodbanks simply to eat, private schools getting a tax break is obscene.

 

[wtfftw]

Dawn Butlers campaign vid is giving me life today


(needs sound)

 

[chilango]

Yea tbh Parental engagement in most things seems lacking in pretty much all areas of society these days, increasingly it seems the care, safety and nurturing of their children is someone elses reponsibility while they either go to work or catch up on their social meeja feeds

Not my experience.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yea tbh Parental engagement in most things seems lacking in pretty much all areas of society these days, increasingly it seems the care, safety and nurturing of their children is someone elses reponsibility while they either go to work or catch up on their social meeja feeds

Must be pretty horrible to live in your head.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

They went with greyscalr then

He is about as grey as grey can be, even greyer than John Major was.

 

[The39thStep]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

 

[Johnny Vodka]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

View attachment 428743

Never have so many people grinned about so little.

 

[MickiQ]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

View attachment 428743

Yet another remake of Invasion of the Bodysnatchers

 

[Pickman's model]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

View attachment 428743

one of those occasions when you wish for a catastrophic building collapse.

 

[Sweet FA]

my dad was a house painter

 

[pbsmooth]

Not my experience.

I read a good article talking to teachers about the rise in 'persistent absence' and how they think some parents' attitude to school has changed after the pandemic. they see it as optional and/or more likely to let them stay at home if they just don't want to go. think it's a fair point there to say something has changed in terms of parents and school. if I could find the article it would be good - but you can find lots about the rise in persistent absence.

 

[The39thStep]

one of those occasions when you wish for a catastrophic building collapse.

or a Cilla Black extended vocal that causes their super chips to malfunction

 

[chilango]

People with money can actually do something about it though or make politicians listen to them in a way poorer parents can’t

Yeah. But "access to resources" isn't the judgemental framing that "engagement" is that can then be used to justify inequalities.

 

[chilango]

I read a good article talking to teachers about the rise in 'persistent absence' and how they think some parents' attitude to school has changed after the pandemic. they see it as optional and/or more likely to let them stay at home if they just don't want to go. think it's a fair point there to say something has changed in terms of parents and school. if I could find the article it would be good - but you can find lots about the rise in persistent absence.

I'm aware of that. Certainly attitudes towards attendance at school have shifted. There is also a concurrent rise in home schooling which (regardless of its pros and cons) involves a significant increase in parental engagement with education.

I'm just really opposed to the "middle class parents are more engaged with their kids' education" narrative that is pulled out.

 

[teqniq]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

View attachment 428743

They walk among us.

 

[Wilf]

This could well be from a film when a group of Jehovah's Witnesses have been stealthily replaced by a group of androids made by the great Toolmaker

View attachment 428743

Do Androids Dream of EHRC Reports.

 

[Wilf]

Never have so many people grinned about so little.

 

[wtfftw]

 

[Silas Loom]

Eyes right, emotions, electricity!

(Not that I’d endorse using them against Starmer’s team).

 

[Dogsauce]

Quite an amusing Guardian piece about the vermins' shitshow campaign

View attachment 428728

Particularly drawn to this para:


and, lo, here is the said campaign launch in all its glory...

View attachment 428729

I reckon the sole young person is also a cardboard cut-out, glued to the back of the sign in front.